Flagstaff AZ human caused, again.

[Tac-O]

Politically, the wildfire situation is pretty screwed up. Most environmental organizations that sue a government agency over them wanting to log or prescribe burn an area is because the FS or BLM just wants to burn the area so that they can harvest timber, even if the area ecologically should not be touched. These two agencies manage the forests for the most part as a tree farm... Not in a manner that is ecologically sound and not for the actual health of the forest.

Just letting the fires burn (at this point) would cause further issues by allowing certain plant species to take hold that promote more frequentll and hotter fires. It's an incredibly complicated problem to solve and rehab.

Even if we did manage fires and prescribe burns perfectly well to get forests back to a state of being able to burn themselves out without massive destruction, we may not be able to get to that state due to the beetle kill issues. More acidic rain (than pre fossil fuel days) decreases forest health and is one of the primary reasons beetles are able to take hold of various forests where they didn't in the past. Constant die off from beetles compounds the issue.

 

[Predator 22]

Politically, the wildfire situation is pretty screwed up. Most environmental organizations that sue a government agency over them wanting to log or prescribe burn an area is because the FS or BLM just wants to burn the area so that they can harvest timber, even if the area ecologically should not be touched. These two agencies manage the forests for the most part as a tree farm... Not in a manner that is ecologically sound and not for the actual health of the forest.

Just letting the fires burn (at this point) would cause further issues by allowing certain plant species to take hold that promote more frequentll and hotter fires. It's an incredibly complicated problem to solve and rehab.

Even if we did manage fires and prescribe burns perfectly well to get forests back to a state of being able to burn themselves out without massive destruction, we may not be able to get to that state due to the beetle kill issues. More acidic rain (than pre fossil fuel days) decreases forest health and is one of the primary reasons beetles are able to take hold of various forests where they didn't in the past. Constant die off from beetles compounds the issue.

Do you have any information on your acid rain theory? I'd like to read about that.

 

[Predator 22]

This is the best info I've read on pine beetles. I think the severe drought we have been in is a big factor for the beetles. Stressed trees that don't have enough water/sap to overwhelm the beetles and basically drowned them.

 

[Predator 22]

Not exactly before and after but I took these 180 degrees from each other standing on the edge of my timber sale.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

"More acidic rain than pre fossil fuel days?"

Bro, there were probably 4 billion years pre fossil fuel, and maybe 200 years since we started using them. Pretending we know the acid content of rain going back far enough to get a real sample of a relevant time period is laughable.

I've also lived my entire life without hearing that. I remember the 80's when the dems tried to scam us with the "acid rain is going to end the planet" speech. It was right before the hairspray became illegal because it was destroying the ozone layer scam. Back when they were dreaming up global warming, but hit 9 other attempted eco scams along the way.

 

[Ckgworks]

Not to detract from the fire issue, but I'm curious what happened to just burying your excrement and toilet paper? Did I miss the memo because I see it all over in the woods, and now people are trying to burn it?

It seems so simple to use your boot toe or a shovel if you have it to scoop out a hole and hide the evidence of your "passing"

 

[Bob Wright]

Not to detract from the fire issue, but I'm curious what happened to just burying your excrement and toilet paper? Did I miss the memo because I see it all over in the woods, and now people are trying to burn it?

It seems so simple to use your boot toe or a shovel if you have it to scoop out a hole and hide the evidence of your "passing"

That's the arrested dudes story, to burn the T.P.
I think it's just pure arson.
No sane person would burn their toilet paper in an extremely dry forest with stage 2 fire restrictions.
What's really scary is the amount of homeless living in forests around population centers. Nothing against them and troubles, but I suspect many will do stupid things. Just the trash left is terrible.

 

[Bob Wright]

Not exactly before and after but I took these 180 degrees from each other standing on the edge of my timber sale.View attachment 372278View attachment 372279

Much better. Thanks!

 

[Bob Wright]

Politically, the wildfire situation is pretty screwed up. Most environmental organizations that sue a government agency over them wanting to log or prescribe burn an area is because the FS or BLM just wants to burn the area so that they can harvest timber, even if the area ecologically should not be touched. These two agencies manage the forests for the most part as a tree farm... Not in a manner that is ecologically sound and not for the actual health of the forest.

Just letting the fires burn (at this point) would cause further issues by allowing certain plant species to take hold that promote more frequentll and hotter fires. It's an incredibly complicated problem to solve and rehab.

Even if we did manage fires and prescribe burns perfectly well to get forests back to a state of being able to burn themselves out without massive destruction, we may not be able to get to that state due to the beetle kill issues. More acidic rain (than pre fossil fuel days) decreases forest health and is one of the primary reasons beetles are able to take hold of various forests where they didn't in the past. Constant die off from beetles compounds the issue.

Nope and nope.
We quit harvesting timber in AZ forests in the 70's because of environmental activism. All the timber mills closed.
We continued to suppress fires. That and no logging allowed the forests to grow thicker. Loggers not only took a qty of good trees, but also were required to take smaller jack pines. (We never "clear cut" anything)
Acid rain was only tied to high Sulphur coal near steel mills (dilute sulfuric acid was present in rain) That process was discontinued because it was bad steel, required too much secondary processing to burn out sulfur, terrible to live around and electro melt steels became more popular.
Bark beetles are a result of the drought. Less water in trees, less sap to encapsulate and kill larvae. We're in a 30 year drought. Bark beetles thrive.

 

[Tac-O]

Do you have any information on your acid rain theory? I'd like to read about that.

I don't remember the specific study because my wife was reading it to me during a road trip awhile ago. If you search acidic rain forest health you'll find information on how it decreases forest health.

@Bob Wright yes I know drought is a major factor also. Anything that decreases forest health promotes susceptibility to beetles. Another factor is overcrowding forests with low pine species diversity. Fire suppression for many years has caused that. I'm absolutely not against logging or fossil fuels as a supplemental energy resource. But, they do have an impact on forest health and even if the areas aren't clearcut, the large amount of disruption to the forest floor during logging operations can hinder regrowth that allows a healthy forest.

Anyway, yes idiots need to stop burning TP!

 

[Tac-O]

Not to detract from the fire issue, but I'm curious what happened to just burying your excrement and toilet paper? Did I miss the memo because I see it all over in the woods, and now people are trying to burn it?

It seems so simple to use your boot toe or a shovel if you have it to scoop out a hole and hide the evidence of your "passing"

It may be gross, but I pack out my TP. In the drier west areas the microfauna are lower in concentration 6" down than near the surface, so poo and other items like TP will last a lot longer when buried. Don't actually know what the recommended procedure is for TP, but I pack it. That's just what I do.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

It may be gross, but I pack out my TP. In the drier west areas the microfauna are lower in concentration 6" down than near the surface, so poo and other items like TP will last a lot longer when buried. Don't actually know what the recommended procedure is for TP, but I pack it. That's just what I do.

You put your poop in your pocket because you aren't satisfied with the time required for paper to decompose under ground? Man, we see this world from very different eyes.

 

[Bob Wright]

You put your poop in your pocket because you aren't satisfied with the time required for paper to decompose under ground? Man, we see this world from very different eyes.

TP breaks down. No way I'm packing it out. Kick a hole, bury the mess.

 

[Tac-O]

You put your poop in your pocket because you aren't satisfied with the time required for paper to decompose under ground? Man, we see this world from very different eyes.

Well it does go into 2 ziplocs first. Then in my pack, not my pocket.

It's less of a concern to me if I'm hunting way away from a trail where others are less likely to travel. But in high use areas where people have dogs, yes it's a concern to me since dogs like to dig up poop for a snack