billflangjr813
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- May 21, 2014
- Messages
- 224
I'm in Florida. Head shoot all my hogs!! Drop in there tracks. If I miss there gone. See them next time out!!!
Done with 215 Bergers
- Thread starter treillw
- Start date
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Warbird2006
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- Joined
- Apr 15, 2012
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- 412
Well, if you are not a confident shooter and hitting animals into the belly a lot, Bergers are for you. I know this is a long-range hunting forum, but 98% of animals are killed in 50 to 200-yards range. I know guys planning and preparing for "long-range" hunts, taking their long-range rigs to the bush and ending up shooting a mulley at 70 years. The bullet goes through, buck runs, it takes an entire day to find the animal (sometimes not) and then they complain about non-performing bullets for the next 5 years.
Blue Ridge Rifleman
Well-Known Member
OCHO505: Please tell us what went wrong with VLD performance that required six (or was it seven?) rounds to put a ram down? No penetration? No expansion? You obviously recovered the animal and are in a great position to tell us why Bergers are the worst. Thanks.
OCHO505
Well-Known Member
So for the one specific case on the Oryx the guide told me he was using a 220 or 230 Berger not sure which he shot the Oryx at 100 yards 3 or 4 times in the shoulder in the group size of a revolver and the oryx just stood there and took it like nothing. After it ran off they ended up shooting it quartering away. And got it done all the bullets not much if any expansion still in the shoulder. Again I am just saying what I was told. I guide with these guys so I feel like they have no reason to lie and they are like 60 plus years old.
On the sheep that we shot it was just big chunks taken out like bullet exploded. But he got hit with the 6.5 and than 3 times with 300 wsm and was still dragging himself. Ended up shooting him in the chest at about 60 yards head on. Again a gash/chunk the size of riffle scope take out but no real penetration. I don't know if its placement of shot or just the speeds or what but pretty much just have the issue they don't expand and in other cases just blow up.
Maybe I have the wrong load, maybe wrong gun or speed is off. I don't know? You watch the Best of The West highlight real of the 6.5x284 they were stoning everything 500 yards and out including Moose & Elk but maybe the bullet works better further. I am just getting into riffles legitimately. I have killed tons but never measured groups or shot hand loads. So, I am learning as I go.
Blue Ridge Rifleman
Well-Known Member
Thanks again. So it sounds like not penetrating to the vitals when hitting the shoulder.
OCHO505
Well-Known Member
Pretty much. It's so odd too cause I have so many friends that love them. It almost seams like they are going to fast as the people killing them far are having better luck causing damage or even just stoning them. I still bought some for my WM will see I am working up some loads to see. I just thought it was my 140 was to small.
.25MOA
Well-Known Member
I've shot plenty with Berger VLD and Classic Hunter from 300WM 300WSM AND 270WSM all different ranges 100m to 1.137km and Never had a kill problem....pigs goats deer tahr....all drop on the spot.....cant beat shot placement and a Berger
You should hunt with a Toyota, just got one in my Avalon and the little buck was DRT car was too
Yeah - interesting thread. I probably commented already, but here's how it shakes out for me:
- It's 90% shot placement, 10% bullet performance, but we talk about the bullet 90% of the time & shooting 10% of the time.
- You can't compare what happens with whitetail and what happens with oryx/gemsbok. Their anatomy, size, and tenacity are very different. Internet zealots who do only one type of hunting might not give the best advice to everyone else.
- You need to match a bullet to the animal & velocity you're using. No bullet is perfect for every situation. A bullet hitting the shoulder of an eland at 3200 FPS (please hold together) is different than a bullet passing between the ribs of a whitetail at 1800 FPS (please expand).
- A person who has killed a couple dozen animals over a lifetime doesn't have enough data to draw ANY conclusions. A person who has seen thousands of animals harvested with a variety of bullets and velocities might start to get a good feel for a few things.
- Not everyone who posts an opinion knows what they're talking about. This includes people in magazines and on TV.
- We need more science and less opinion to learn anything meaningful about something so complex as terminal ballistics.
- Weird stuff happens. Scientifically, it's important to identify and ignore a few outliers in the data. This is hard to do when it happens to you.
- Some people who post anonymously on the Internet are promoting products they sell.
- Pick the bullet that shoots the best in your rifle, learn to shoot it well, keep written notes, and enjoy and share this wonderful way of life called hunting.
- It's 90% shot placement, 10% bullet performance, but we talk about the bullet 90% of the time & shooting 10% of the time.
- You can't compare what happens with whitetail and what happens with oryx/gemsbok. Their anatomy, size, and tenacity are very different. Internet zealots who do only one type of hunting might not give the best advice to everyone else.
- You need to match a bullet to the animal & velocity you're using. No bullet is perfect for every situation. A bullet hitting the shoulder of an eland at 3200 FPS (please hold together) is different than a bullet passing between the ribs of a whitetail at 1800 FPS (please expand).
- A person who has killed a couple dozen animals over a lifetime doesn't have enough data to draw ANY conclusions. A person who has seen thousands of animals harvested with a variety of bullets and velocities might start to get a good feel for a few things.
- Not everyone who posts an opinion knows what they're talking about. This includes people in magazines and on TV.
- We need more science and less opinion to learn anything meaningful about something so complex as terminal ballistics.
- Weird stuff happens. Scientifically, it's important to identify and ignore a few outliers in the data. This is hard to do when it happens to you.
- Some people who post anonymously on the Internet are promoting products they sell.
- Pick the bullet that shoots the best in your rifle, learn to shoot it well, keep written notes, and enjoy and share this wonderful way of life called hunting.
OCHO505
Well-Known Member
I agree but that being said in most cases the best bullets don't always shoot the best and sometimes we or I get caught in the 1/2 MOA. I have an AR10 300 wsm probably shoots 1.5 but kills the crap out of stuff. But I'm not a 1000 yard shooter anyway.
In regards to orxy for whitetail and so on the oryx is by far the toughest animal to kill imo. So if you can put the smack down with them your gold across NA.
I do agree find that happy medium in accuracy and what works. Sometimes we just see something on a show or YouTube and live and die by it but as you said it may not be the best to use for all applications.
I do find it odd that the thread has specific comments to certain grains and how a 210 can do well but not 215. Pretty interesting
Good information gents! I'm still learning so I take all things into consideration
I shot a bull elk 7 times with barnes TTSX, I felt horrible, the last 2 were in the head from about 15 yards. Like you said, it looked like an arrow with a field point went through him. That was the last time I used them. The last 2 elk I shot, one being my biggest bull, fell over less than 5 yards from impact with 180 berger VLD's.
nralifer
Well-Known Member
One has to understand what kills an animal. I am a surgeon and hunter and have had extensive trauma experience. Have seen and treated all sorts of bullet wounds in humans and as a hunter and bullet maker I have seen a lot of rifle bullet injuries in animals ranging from Rabbits to Cape Buffalo. Rapid kills ultimately involve stopping blood flow to the brain to render the animal unconscious. There are only 2 ways to achieve that. Either hit the brain directly (something that is rarely done in long range hunting) or cause a catastrophic drop in blood pressure. The latter can be done 2 ways. Either hit the heart or any major vessel such as the vena cava, aorta or pulmonary artery to cause rapid internal bleeding or stop blood flow out of the heart by increasing the resistance to the outflow of blood from the right ventricle into the lungs. Both mechanisms cause a rapid drop in blood pressure and therefore stop blood flow to the brain. As hunters we want a rapid kill that is hopefully painless for the prey we are hunting. It is absolutely crucial that the shot be properly placed and that the bullet penetrate deeply in an expanded state through either the lungs or heart. The smart hunter has at least 2 obligations. The first is to have some understanding of the anatomy of the animal you are hunting, and the second is to have an accurate rifle using bullets that will expand reliably and penetrate deeply. For big game hunting, blazing bullet speed is not necessary in virtually all instances, and lightly constructed bullets, such as target bullets, should not be used at all in my opinion. Lead core jacketed bullets can behave very erratically and in my experience are not good either at high or low impact velocities. Too many hunters also expect bullets to compensate for poor or marginal shot placement. Those guys will usually be disappointed. The opposite is true, good shot placement will almost always compensate for poor bullet performance. The only exception is an ultra fast lightly constructed lead core bullet hitting at a high impact velocity on a large tough animal like an Elk. The most rapidly fatal and highest probability of hit shots are those to the chest, and the best bullets are ones that expand to 1.5-2 calibers 100% of the time at impact velocities of 2000 fps or more all the way up to close to muzzle velocity.
What is "almost" in the 2 cases i had they were right were they needed to be.
I have no doudt in my mind if they would have been a Berger or Partition they would have been dead on the spot.
