Done with 215 Bergers

[Murph1951]

In 55 years of hunting with my Remington 700 BDL 30-06 I have used only Remington 165-180 grain Core-Lokts and never ever had a failure with shooting way to many White Tails to count. Every cartridge a handload well mostly....I started reloading when I was 19 so a few Speer "Hot Core" thrown in. I stay away from anything with a boat tail because of something I read when I was a kid. Sure Core-Lokts are pretty much old fashion but deer have never learned that. You young hunters talk to old timers on bullets they will set you straight. My neighbor in his late 80's now, kept a diary of every deer he shot (well over 200) used the same bullet as me even the same powder (IMR 4350)

 

[tgeavenson]

This bullet retained 162.4 grains out of 200. Hit behind the last rib and quartered thru to the opposite shoulder. DOA. 200 grain TLR loaded at 3025 fps.

 

[INVICTUS]

So much wasted emotion.
If the bullet is the VLD-H ("recommended for hunting" on the box), it is a hunting bullet that has taken many critters well, including 2 elk for me, regardless of your judgmental view.

Maybe you just need to learn to shoot better. I don't have these problems regardless of bullet and equipment. For 40 years I been listening to people blame all kinds of things on guns and equipment . Stuff works well when I use it. I am not being critical. I've had to stop myself and be honest about what an issue actually is on more than one occasion. It's always me. I determine this before I go do something that matters, not after years of mixed results. If it happens once it can happen again. None of this stuff is cookie cutter. Pick the one right tool for the job and become flawless with it.

 

[hpmag308]

The ONLY difference between the Hunting and Target is a few thou of jacket thickness so they can handle the in bore environment of a target shooter, that is it, there is not a hunting design either by they way, the hunting line is the original target line that was renamed when a bunch of hunters found out they got better results than the hunting bullets they were using and talked Eric and Walt into the fact that their target bullets also hunted extremely well and they should market them to us so they renamed the thinner jacket Hunting and the thicker Target, shazam Hunting bullets!!

What tells me a bullet is good for hunting is shooting, opening up and cutting game, that is the ONLY thing that I believe, marketing is just that, blowing smoke up your butt hoping it tastes good!!

Sort of like the cm

 

[sbruni]

Am interested to hear from those with lots of experience with these bullets... first time I hunted with Berger's was probably a dozen years ago on a hog hunt... 80 yard head on quartering shot took out internals, opened up the belly and took out one ham... no need to field dress because the organs were vaporized... hog still ran 30-40 yards and no blood... granted I didn't check the trees. I was impressed enough to take it on a whitetail hunt a few weeks later. A nice heavy eight stepped out at about 100 yards and gave me an easy broadside in a somewhat narrow lane between standing corn and thick CRP... no blood and after about 90 minutes of searching I figure I screwed up the shot somehow. The bullet was so devistating on the big hog I couldn't imagine no blood on a whitetail. Confirmed scope was on with the next doe that stepped out and I was on... in the ear so no test of terminal performance... next day I had a buck step out at 20 yards... he stumbled a bit at the the first and 2nd shot and fell over... I was amazed to find no exit holes... but discovered that's characteristic of these bullets. A buddy found the first buck a week later in the CRP about 20 yards away from where I was looking... I was sure he continued into the corn where he was headed so didn't look quit as hard in the CRP... love them but haven't hunted with Berger's since... most of my hunting has been in the east where you might get some 300-500 yards but the deer are typically 10-20 steps from thicker territory... so I'm thinking exit/ blood trail is important in the East... but also appreciate that in open country that might not be the case.

so my questions are
1) do you vary shot placement close vs long shots
2) how else should one change decisions, behavior, expectations, etc. using Berger's vs more conventional hunting bullets

thanks...

 

[tribb]

In all my years of hunting I've had what I consider 2 bullet failures, one was a 7mm 140 Nosler ballistic tip in a 7mm-08 25 years ago on a whitetail that splashed on the hide right behind the front shoulder took me all day to finally get that buck.
Next was about 30 years ago when Barnes first came out with there bullets, I tried there 120 gr in a 280 and my buddy had i think the 130 in his 270 weatherby he shot a buck and it came down to me i shot it just stood there shot it 4 more times before it ran off and died. Skinned it out, all 6 holes looked like you pushed a pencil all the way through the deer zero expansion.
Over the years I shot Rem cor-locs, Nosler Partitions and Berger.
For LR first choice - Berger
Under 400 - Nosler Partition
Neither of these 2 have ever failed me

I truly believe that the nosler partition is truly what all other bullet makers wish they had built!!!!! I'm going to start a new thread encouraging others to plead with nosler to make a partition no.2 with "plastic" tip and include a slightly higher b.c. if possible!

 

[Golfbum51]

In all my years of hunting I've had what I consider 2 bullet failures, one was a 7mm 140 Nosler ballistic tip in a 7mm-08 25 years ago on a whitetail that splashed on the hide right behind the front shoulder took me all day to finally get that buck.
Next was about 30 years ago when Barnes first came out with there bullets, I tried there 120 gr in a 280 and my buddy had i think the 130 in his 270 weatherby he shot a buck and it came down to me i shot it just stood there shot it 4 more times before it ran off and died. Skinned it out, all 6 holes looked like you pushed a pencil all the way through the deer zero expansion.
Over the years I shot Rem cor-locs, Nosler Partitions and Berger.
For LR first choice - Berger
Under 400 - Nosler Partition
Neither of these 2 have ever failed me

In all my years of hunting I've had what I consider 2 bullet failures, one was a 7mm 140 Nosler ballistic tip in a 7mm-08 25 years ago on a whitetail that splashed on the hide right behind the front shoulder took me all day to finally get that buck.
Next was about 30 years ago when Barnes first came out with there bullets, I tried there 120 gr in a 280 and my buddy had i think the 130 in his 270 weatherby he shot a buck and it came down to me i shot it just stood there shot it 4 more times before it ran off and died. Skinned it out, all 6 holes looked like you pushed a pencil all the way through the deer zero expansion.
Over the years I shot Rem cor-locs, Nosler Partitions and Berger.
For LR first choice - Berger
Under 400 - Nosler Partition
Neither of these 2 have ever failed me

 

[Golfbum51]

All bullets manufacturers will eventually build a round that fails. I have 10s of thousands of rounds behind and I have seen two. One was a handgun (357 mag) that disintegrated coming out of the barrell. SuperVel was the brand, and the target (7 yrds) looked like shotgun pellets hit it. The other was a MilSpec round from a 30-06. I was shooting for 600 yard qualification and slowly and deliberately putting one round after the next into a pretty nice group. Touched off the next round and it hit about 70 yards in front of me and 15 or 20 yards to the right of the target line. Me, my spotter and the range master all observed it. Range master said he suspected an air bubble in the lead? Don't know what it was. But I promise you, with all the bad shots a man can make in 70 years, that was my worst!

 

[tooth doc]

All I will say to the "target" bullet response is you are clueless if you actually believe a bullet is engineered to behave a certain way. Some "target" bullets have thin jackets and the "hunting" bullets of the same company will have thick jackets. Another company will be the exact opposite. Some trial and error has shown us some general differences in the way a cup and core bullet responds vs a bonded bullet but generalities are about as good as that gets. You can not engineer a bullet to behave a certain way on impact at all velocities. There is no free lunch. Bullets that expand great at 50 yards give up terminal performance at 800 yards and vice versa. Use what you want. The Berger 215 is one of the greatest hunting bullets ever created despite the the label says. Ethics are not allowed to be discussed on this forum but I can GUARANTEE more animals are shot at unethically with "hunting" bullets at running animals than are shot at long range with a well place 215 Berger.

The OP's post is full of speculation and anecdotal evidence at best. This is generally how the "this bullet sucks" argument starts. No facts. Usually no recovered bullet. Usually no recovered animal to prove where on the animal it was hit. I have lost track of the animals I alone have taken or seen taken with the 215 Berger and I have personally seen no better bullet.


The 3000fps remark makes no sense either because muzzle velocity has zero affect on terminal performance. Impact velocity is all that matters. A faster MV will give better performance farther away but impact velocity is the deciding factor.

End of story, nuff said!

 

[OCHO505]

All I know is the people that run one of the biggest ranches here in NM for Oryx say it is the worst performing bullet they have ever seen. Over 1000 Oryx killed on the ranch and that is just what they see they have no preference in what caliber and bullet as they just guide but they absolutely believe based on what they see Berger are the absolute worst.

They have seen the best results with Accubond or Partisan. I have seen my 300 WSM 190 grain Accubond LR kill 6 Oryx over last few years and they are by far one of if not the toughest animals to kill same with Barbary sheep.

I shot a big ram with my 140VLD 6.5x284 @ 200 yards acted like a threw dirt on him. Maybe the wrong gun but that close and the shot looked to be perfect you never can tell. My buddy proceeded to shoot the same ram with 168 VLD in which 4 shots later ram was still alive. He pinwheeled him in the shoulder. You never really know as the perfect shot is only what kills the animal but I have really been wanting to go away from Berger with the above stated. I do have friends that have had great luck with them I am just not one of them!

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Only in a Covid era could such a silly controversy get over 200 responses with no relief in sight.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I have stuck with Noslers for a very long time. Starting in the middle 70's. I use a partition only once. It came apart, and blood shot the entire side of the animal. It was a heart shot, just behind the left shoulder on the magic line, and that been the most of my shots on large game. In Africa the guide had me move forward onto the front shoulder. The guide said that the heart are a little farther foreword. The most of my shots were one shot kills. Oh I have screw up too. I do miss and miss place the bullet once in awhile. I learned to slow down a little, before setting off the trigger.

 

[OCHO505]

Only in a Covid era could such a silly controversy get over 200 responses with no relief in sight.

Well since the extra 3 days to count the legit ballets are over back to regular life!

 

[billflangjr813]

Am interested to hear from those with lots of experience with these bullets... first time I hunted with Berger's was probably a dozen years ago on a hog hunt... 80 yard head on quartering shot took out internals, opened up the belly and took out one ham... no need to field dress because the organs were vaporized... hog still ran 30-40 yards and no blood... granted I didn't check the trees. I was impressed enough to take it on a whitetail hunt a few weeks later. A nice heavy eight stepped out at about 100 yards and gave me an easy broadside in a somewhat narrow lane between standing corn and thick CRP... no blood and after about 90 minutes of searching I figure I screwed up the shot somehow. The bullet was so devistating on the big hog I couldn't imagine no blood on a whitetail. Confirmed scope was on with the next doe that stepped out and I was on... in the ear so no test of terminal performance... next day I had a buck step out at 20 yards... he stumbled a bit at the the first and 2nd shot and fell over... I was amazed to find no exit holes... but discovered that's characteristic of these bullets. A buddy found the first buck a week later in the CRP about 20 yards away from where I was looking... I was sure he continued into the corn where he was headed so didn't look quit as hard in the CRP... love them but haven't hunted with Berger's since... most of my hunting has been in the east where you might get some 300-500 yards but the deer are typically 10-20 steps from thicker territory... so I'm thinking exit/ blood trail is important in the East... but also appreciate that in open country that might not be the case.

so my questions are
1) do you vary shot placement close vs long shots
2) how else should one change decisions, behavior, expectations, etc. using Berger's vs more conventional hunting bullets

thanks...

Get yourself a 50 Cal.