210 Bergers Get it Done!

[jarheadhunter]

Let me re-phrase the above,

In shots on elk, shots usually showed no exits. Closer shots showed greater expansion and generally less penetration.

How far would you say it was from the entrance to the exits on your moose?

I am guessing one side to the other.

Why you beating him up so much you don't believe him?

Sometimes things don't work like they normally do or as advertised.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I am guessing one side to the other.

Why you beating him up so much you don't believe him?

Sometimes things don't work like they normally do or as advertised.

I am not beating him up and I have no reason to doubt him. I was asking the distance from one side to the other because I am curious how far these bullets penetrated. I think it's good info, just like Broz's thread was good info.

I am also merely pointing out that thin jacketed frangible bullets are not the best option for deep penetration. As you mention, things don't always work out as advertised. These types of bullets are hard to predict performance with. If i was going to pick a bullet for dangerous game, I would want something more predictable and I would hedge to worse case scenario rather than best case. That is in no way a flame to the OP. He did well. It's just my honest opinion.

My concern was that the Bergers were being touted as reliable, deep penetrating dangerous game bullets. I think there is another side to that thinking. There are documented cases of Bergers penetraiting less than 16" and that is in fact the advertised performance. I would not choose that type of bullet for dangerous game. Anyone else is certainly welcome to choose any type of bullet they want but it's good to have as much info on the subject as possible when making that decision.

 

[rjmarine]

montanarifleman brings up a very good point. this is why i always test my bullets in wet phone books to see just how they will perform in the given rifle and the speeds i will be bushing them. i start my testing at 25 yrds then i can move my testing phone book holder to any given yardage from 25 yrds to 600 yrds. i much rather do my own testing over reading what some computer tells me they will do. im kinda funny that way. after testing many brands of bullets in many different wts. i can tell you that all of them work the way they tell you they will. some are much better then other for some rifles and the speed they will be shot at for hunting. a cpl yrs ago we had a guy come over to do some testing with us and he had his big 300 super mag he used just the yr before to take an elk with. it did take 2 shots he said but the elk did go down. well he shot that same load he used on the elk into our phone book test stand and they went all of 9" . he did not try them at any other range so that is all i have for that load he shot. the bullet opened up and come apart at the 25 yrd mark so this would not be my 1st choice for a load in that rifle for hunting elk in western montana where your shots can range from 20 yrds to well over 600
i then shot my little 25x47 into a new set of wet phone books loaded with 80gr
TTSX and they went 12 " into the books and the bullet looked just like they show it does after shooting it into there test media.

now i am not saying in any way that his 300 super mag will not work again on elk with that same load but maybe next time the shot will be at a much less forgiving angle and those bullets do not do there job. i like to go into the hunt with as many plus's in my favor as i can . i hate tracking wounded game .

 

[stewartrecords]

Well, all I can say is that I have never had an animal run off using Berger Bullets. Myself and my clients have killed several big bull moose, bull caribou, wolves, mountain goats and 2 grizzlies. All are dead!.. All never went any further than 50 yards. On the moose I killed, one of the rounds hit him in the front shoulder and traveled about 5 feet before exiting with a massive exit wound. On the pic I up loaded you can see the exit would and blood if you look closely. As for the bear and the bullets not exiting, grizzlies are dense. The rounds still traveled 2-3 feet on both shots. On other moose I have seen no pass trough's. When opened up the moose farside rib cage looked like a shot gun hit him. That moose only took 1 round at 100 yards. All things have the potential to fail. But bottom line, my experience with the Berger bullets has been great.

As for telephone books, that's not a great media to use compared to ballistic gel with real bone. I think if you want to talk about real world experiences use real world material. Use ballistic gel with real bone that represents the animal not telephone books.

In the last 5 years I have killed or watched over 15 big game animals go down using bergers. They all go down, they are all recovered animals bottom line.

Here is a another pic I just got back from the guide!!

 

[Broz]

Well, all I can say is that I have never had an animal run off using Berger Bullets.

They all go down, they are all recovered animals bottom line.

Stewartrecords, your success with quick Berger kills are the same as mine.
100% recovered dead animals and never tracked one yet. Over 20 Big game animals just last year alone and have witnessed 100's of successful kills. This year is proving to be the same way even with some tough shots on bull elk that didn't have vitals exposed.

But be warned, there are a hand full of guys on this site that have chosen to be Berger haters. They have banded together, talk in private and plan their attacks on you if your posts contain to much success. Doesn't matter if you only speak the truth, they will degrade you, attack your integrity and do what ever they can in an attempt to make you look bad.

But please know the number of successful real hunters using Berger bullets out number them probably 100 to 1. I think that is what chaps their azzes most.

Great animals there you killed. Congrats! and awesome job getting it done.

Thanks for your in depth report and pics.

Jeff

 

[rjmarine]

i am not a berger hater at all
i was just pointing out that i do a lot of bullet testing and use wet phone books to do this testing . phone books are much cheaper the bullet jell/bone by 100 times
and we do get good results using it.
i myself use many different bullets for different rifles to do different jobs

 

[yobuck]

i would like to congratulate the op on his very successful hunt.
they are some very nice trophys.
i dont think any offence should be directed at those with questions about bullet performance however.
hanging on the walls of this very room are an alaskan moose and a large
grizzley rug taken by my father on a yukon hunt 61 years ago.
each was taken with one shot from an 06 with a 180gr i believe hornady bullet.
so the fact is trophy animals were taken long before many of the products
available today even existed. that would include berger bullets of coarse.
i personaly think there is no doubt as to the quality and performance
standards of berger bullets for long range performance. that said does 5 shots from a 300 win into a moose raise any questions? well i would agree that it does especially since im looking at one killed with 4 less from an 06.
keep in mind also that there is alot of hype these days about berger bullets
on these type sites. to the point that it would be easy to think it foolish to
consider using others. so if some of that is sent back it should be expected
and absorbed.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Stewartrecords, your success with quick Berger kills are the same as mine.
100% recovered dead animals and never tracked one yet. Over 20 Big game animals just last year alone and have witnessed 100's of successful kills. This year is proving to be the same way even with some tough shots on bull elk that didn't have vitals exposed.

But be warned, there are a hand full of guys on this site that have chosen to be Berger haters. They have banded together, talk in private and plan their attacks on you if your posts contain to much success. Doesn't matter if you only speak the truth, they will degrade you, attack your integrity and do what ever they can in an attempt to make you look bad.

But please know the number of successful real hunters using Berger bullets out number them probably 100 to 1. I think that is what chaps their azzes most.

Great animals there you killed. Congrats! and awesome job getting it done.

Thanks for your in depth report report and pics.

Jeff

Jeff,

I hope you're not including me as a Berger "hater". I hope you know better than that. I have about 500 of them here in boxes ready to load and use on any game in this country. That said, they are a frangible bullet and IMO, not the best choice if a deep penetrating bullet is needed for the game hunted. In your own experience you have had 16" or less of penetration.

I am all about being OBJECTIVE. There is no perfect bullet for all situations and you yourself have said that as well. I am neither a Berger hater or Berger lover.

 

[Broz]

Mark, I never named any names but no I was not including you. You know the few I was referring to. I see this thread heading the same direction as many threads. So I was just making the OP aware of what will likely come. Yes I have seen Bergers that did not exit large elk at under 5 to 600 yards and stop in the far side with about 16" of penetration. I also seen the same exact bullet from the same rifle go 26" and through the far shoulder of a bull. No two shots are the same for any bullet. Simply breaking a rib going in, or deflection off it as some harder bullets will do, will be a huge factor as to what the bullet does from there. This is just one example of the many factors involved with shot placement, angles, impact velocity, amount of bone, hide, meat, water soaked stomach content, etc.

I have said before many times, use what you like, know how it works, and use it to your advantage. For me that just happens to be a bullet that will still expand well at long range. All I have ever said is they work very well for me.

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well, all I can say is that I have never had an animal run off using Berger Bullets. Myself and my clients have killed several big bull moose, bull caribou, wolves, mountain goats and 2 grizzlies. All are dead!.. All never went any further than 50 yards. On the moose I killed, one of the rounds hit him in the front shoulder and traveled about 5 feet before exiting with a massive exit wound. On the pic I up loaded you can see the exit would and blood if you look closely. As for the bear and the bullets not exiting, grizzlies are dense. The rounds still traveled 2-3 feet on both shots. On other moose I have seen no pass trough's. When opened up the moose farside rib cage looked like a shot gun hit him. That moose only took 1 round at 100 yards. All things have the potential to fail. But bottom line, my experience with the Berger bullets has been great.

As for telephone books, that's not a great media to use compared to ballistic gel with real bone. I think if you want to talk about real world experiences use real world material. Use ballistic gel with real bone that represents the animal not telephone books.

In the last 5 years I have killed or watched over 15 big game animals go down using bergers. They all go down, they are all recovered animals bottom line.

Here is a another pic I just got back from the guide!!

I will congratulate you again on your success . You have a couple of fine animals and great stories to boot.

I agree that phone books or even water are not the best media to test bullets with. Flesh and bone are the best media. I rely more on the experiences of the members here including you and Jeff, to get a feel for how a particular bullet will perform in a particular set of circumstances. Form the many, many posts I've read on Bergers, your experience with close range, high velocity impact and deep penetration is not the norm and is not what the manufacturer advertises. And I am not doubting your experience at all. Sometimes they do penetrate deep and sometimes they don't. When used within their operating parameters, they are devastating and deadly.

Best wishes of success on your future hunts.

 

[rjmarine]

again great job on the moose/griz
maybe there is a bit more here then the taking 5 good shots before going down other then poor bullet performance . maybe the berger's did everything they were designed for and then some . dead is dead right ? but what are the odd's that maybe you the shooter misread the 1st shot even needing a fallow up shot or 2 ?
i have been moose hunting and yes they are huge and when you are that close to 1 your adrenaline can be very high . they can take alot of load and not even seem like they have been hit let alone look like they will go down . so we then drop in 1 more and maybe 1 more while the 1st did its job and went where it should have. that big darn moose just did not know how bad it was and just stands there looking at you while you shoot a cpl more times. do you think now after seeing where the 1st shot landed and what it did to him inside that the 1st would have killed him even if none of the fallow up shots were used ?

p.s. i use wet phone books as just 1 more tool for my tool box not my only tool