Copper vs lead

[palerider3]

We are WAY raptor heavy, WAY, WAY out of control and the last reason to shoot copper, we've lost most of our Mt Goats in one unit because of the Eagles and they are the cause of all this Grouse issues, they need delisted and you get an eagle, wolf, grizzly combo tag!!

Grouse issues? What do mean?

 

[StumpGrinder]

We are WAY raptor heavy, WAY, WAY out of control and the last reason to shoot copper, we've lost most of our Mt Goats in one unit because of the Eagles and they are the cause of all this Grouse issues, they need delisted and you get an eagle, wolf, grizzly combo tag!!

I fully agree! The control of hunting quotes and season regulations need to be left up to the wildlife biologist whose job it is to maintain species equilibrium. Not politicians being influenced by lobbyists who don't understand nature!!! As apex preditors with a brain it is our job to maintain balance when nature needs a hand!

 

[garretthill17]

I use barnes ttsx on almost everything I reload. I've heard the bad reviews some people give about them. Like no expansion. Between my 6.5 Saum and my 6.5 creedmor (hog gun) I've never had an issue with making a harvest. I even shot my first elk about a month ago with 120 gr ttsx quartered shot into the front chest and out the rib cage with about an inch and a half exit wound. Very good internal damage on that elk as well as many whitetail, hogs, and some exotics

 

[M T Roberts]

Truth is all copper is trying to emulate lead performance. My experience has been hit and miss with mostly Barnes. They are more expensive, usually have lower bc. I'm not paying twice the price for a hammer bullet. It may be good but it's not twice as good. Ymmv.

No offense but in my experience the Hammer is twice as accurate, easy to load and retains 70% of it's weight. When you invest thousands of dollars and in my case (AZ and WY) wait years to draw a tag on a hunt I have found that the Bullet is the cheapest but most important part of the pie. I personally want the weight retention And a good BC in my Bullet. If you give the Hammer a chance you will be converted! Good Luck on you hunts.

 

[StumpGrinder]

I wouldn't build a 308 to shoot copper. I would want to launch at like 3300 fps so it will open at distance. Also remember twist. These are so long, I would speed up my twist. Something like 300prc/300 weatherby launching 165-180's from a 26" barrel 1:9 twist maybe. They need like 2200fps to open up effectively at impact.

I don't have to use copper where I live but I still do because I'm a meat hunter!!! I don't give a flip about horns!!! You can't eat them and those big raunchy bucks DON'T taste good!!! I have to soak them for 2 weeks in ice water to make them edible!!! Give me a nice doe or yearling spike any day. Now if a nice buck walks by I will shoot it but if there is a doe with him, I'm shooting the doe! I'm allergic to beef and DON'T eat pork. We eat 4-6 deer per year and the quality of the meat on yearlings and does is excellent!!!

 

[Alibiiv]

Ok so it sounds like the answer is yes with some caveats. Reason is I'm in CA and we are now lead feee (freaking communist here) and plan on a lot more out of state hunting. I'm building a new 308 and thinking that if I can get a 140-150 grain bullet in a solid that is pushing around 2000 FPS Out around 400 yards that would be about equal to my 300WM throwing 180 grain lead bullets out to similar distances... but that is my question.
I don't really see myself going much further then 400 yards with a 308. If I was going longer I would probably take the 300WM with copper bullets in the 165'ish grain.

basically looking for a mule deer and backup elk cartridge. My 300WM is a heavy rifle and not sure I want to carry it 10 miles a day and if I can get similar performance out of a 308 I would be happy to stock an animal for a sub 400 yard shot.

If you are building a rifle, just curious if you have thought about a different cartridge altogether. I was curious if you ever gave the .270 Winchester short magnum a close look. It ought to do all that you are asking the .308 Winchester to do and more out of the same sized, short action rifle.

 

[StumpGrinder]

No offense but in my experience the Hammer is twice as accurate, easy to load and retains 70% of it's weight. When you invest thousands of dollars and in my case (AZ and WY) wait years to draw a tag on a hunt I have found that the Bullet is the cheapest but most important part of the pie. I personally want the weight retention And a good BC in my Bullet. If you give the Hammer a chance you will be converted! Good Luck on you hunts.

I have used hammers in Red Hawk 44 mag. And they did great. Plus when using solid copper you can eat the meat right up to the bullet hole! No lead to worry about.

 

[tooth doc]

Ok so it sounds like the answer is yes with some caveats. Reason is I'm in CA and we are now lead feee (freaking communist here) and plan on a lot more out of state hunting. I'm building a new 308 and thinking that if I can get a 140-150 grain bullet in a solid that is pushing around 2000 FPS Out around 400 yards that would be about equal to my 300WM throwing 180 grain lead bullets out to similar distances... but that is my question.
I don't really see myself going much further then 400 yards with a 308. If I was going longer I would probably take the 300WM with copper bullets in the 165'ish grain.

basically looking for a mule deer and backup elk cartridge. My 300WM is a heavy rifle and not sure I want to carry it 10 miles a day and if I can get similar performance out of a 308 I would be happy to stock an animal for a sub 400 yard shot.

165 or 168 barnes ttsx will do all u ask in 308 or 300 wm

 

[StumpGrinder]

I read an interesting article about copper bullets and weights compared to lead. It was an older article and I can't Find it anymore. Basically it stated that if you use non lead bullets you can drop the weight of the bullet for similar performance because they retain 90-100% of their weight upon impact vs lead bullets that retain 50-70% of there weight.
So in theory shooting a 100 grain copper would give you similar results as a 140'ish grain lead bullet.
Thoughts? I have been switching over to non lead and was interested it this really holds true.

Here where I live we have the smaller Virginia strain Whitetail, I shoot 70gr barnes in my Ruger SR 556, 1 in 8 twist, 90 gr in 243 and 110-130 in 308. Here I have never needed more. Most shots under 100 yds, a couple at around 150-160 and one at 225 with 10 mph crosswind. I was kind of proud of that one.

 

[trubkir17]

What is being discussed here, I believe, is terminal ballastics. I am just starting my deep dive into this topic. Muzzle velocity is discussed very often but I believe the twist in the rifle barrel is just as important. Hammer suggests, maybe even demands, that there is a minimum twist of rifling to use their bullets effectively. If the bullet "tumbles" when it hits I can't see how any bullet will work as advertised.

 

[bigngreen]

165 or 168 barnes ttsx will do all u ask in 308 or 300 wm

When we were able to cull a lot of elk on open fields those two bullets had the highest failure rate of anything, mostly deflecting and turning then they will not penetrate an elk shoulder about a third of the time, we tested them from an 06 and a 300 WBY. I would not have believed it, it took me two years to accept it and with the knowledge gained from that many elk in the open I'd say a LOT of guy loose elk they never though they hit because of them in the timber.

 

[bigngreen]

Grouse issues? What do mean?

We are loosing tons of public ground and access because of the Sage Grouse, they blame EVERYTHING but the eagles decimating them!! There is a LOT of effort to list the Sage Grouse, imagine how large of an area that will put under control of stricter regulations!

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Twice the price in a sport that the bullet is the last thing I'm worried about. So you have a $6500 elk hunt with a guide. You happen upon your trophy bull at 60 yards and you launch your sp lead bullet into its shoulder because it's the cheapest bullet. Elk runs off and you now have a wounded bull and now that bullet cost you $6500.
I know that's drastic but why complain about a Bullets costing $1.50 each when more than likely you don't bat an eye at an expense scope or spending $2.50 for a beer you will **** out 20 min later.
Now I don't shoot targets or steel with hammers much but I'll be dammed if I go on any hunt without what I think is the best equipment I can afford.

I'm with you... That bullet is pretty darned cheap compared to what a failed hunt would cost.

"Cheap parts ain't good & GOOD parts ain't cheap"

 

[PLHunter]

I read an interesting article about copper bullets and weights compared to lead. It was an older article and I can't Find it anymore. Basically it stated that if you use non lead bullets you can drop the weight of the bullet for similar performance because they retain 90-100% of their weight upon impact vs lead bullets that retain 50-70% of there weight.
So in theory shooting a 100 grain copper would give you similar results as a 140'ish grain lead bullet.
Thoughts? I have been switching over to non lead and was interested it this really holds true.

It's all been said before and what you say is mostly true. However, the lower density coppers eventually do Peter out. So if you are applying this logic make sure to consult your ballistic table it will tell you at which point the copper beats and eventually loses to a heavier lead bullet. There will almost always be a point where the lighter faster bullet no longer is equivalent. Personally, I shoot non-lead. For my 25-06 that distance is around 550 yards. For the Creedmoor 600 yards. All within the distances I want to be shooting game at. The 200-400 yard performance of the monolithics I'm shooting (hammers) is outstanding. Also as a lazyish reloader the consistency in dimensions of monos is worth it to me alone.