Copper vs lead

[esshup]

I switched to Barnes in my .243 and .257 Wby Mag when hunting whitetails and had close shots that resulted in hte cup/core bullets impacting at too high of a velocity and not exiting. Still killed the deer, but with no blood trail to follow it was something I didn't want to repeat. I've shot a whitetail with an 85g Barnes TSX and the bullet traveled the whole length of the deer and still exited.

The down side is you have to watch impact velocity with the Barnes. You have to keep it above 2,000 fps for any meaningful expansion. Barnes bullets shot into dry sand don't expand. Shoot the same bullet at the same velocity and distance into a gallon of water and they expand perfectly.

A buddy uses the 130g TTSX for whitetails in his .308 Encore and has taken them out to 400 yds cleanly. IIRC his MV is 3,000 fps or more.

 

[trubkir17]

I don't mean velocity isn't important. I mean we all want as much as we can get. However if the barrel doesn't have enough twist to start you can not overcome that with velocity alone.
At 3100fps and a 1:9.5" twist barrel = 234,947 rpm at the muzzle
At 3100fps and a 1:8" twist barrel = 279,000 rpm at the muzzle.

Even if you increased the MV to 3700fps out of the 1:9.5" barrel to achieve the 279000 rpm the jbm calculator shows that stability only improves very marginally. Therefore my conclusion is that rotation speed alone is not a critical factor in bullet stabilization.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

Dropping weight in a mono and running them faster is what looses elk, I drank that dumb Koolaid too many years, used to run Barnes light and hard in big guns and they had to hit them multiple time often, got of that train and went heavy for cal cup and core, instant problem solved drop way down on cartridge size with better results. Tested MANY monos over the years because I still like some aspects of them BUT until shooting the Hammers never got the terminal performance of the cup and core which is what matters, I still shoot them as heavy as I can cause speed don't kill squat consistently and over wide ranges especially on elk.

Some thoughts. I'd bet you're initial experiences with "X" bullets run back more than 20 years. Coni Brooks took her 300 Win mag. all over the place and killed a pile of different game, both here and in far-away places with the 130-grain bullet loaded fast with little or no trouble at all. If JB is anointed (not elected) pres., you're going to need a mono.

 

[bigngreen]

I am not concerned so much about the raptors although it is out there. I am more concerned with the amount of lead fragments in my food that my wife, son, and I are eating.

Look at those x-rays and CT scans in the article again and tell me you aren't concerned about giving yourself lead poisoning

I've cut better than 12,000 elk and deer, ground meat ran through a grinder with a bone plate set to take everything out from hard tendon up and I've never seen lead frag come out of it, you will find a LOT of copper frag!! I've had boxes ran through xrays and nada, if you have lead in your meat it's very, very unusual and besides your not capable of metabolizing it anyway, you should be far more concerned about the amount of lead and other heavy metal they get from where they graze, this will cause you actual issues not bullet frag!!

 

[seattleman1969]

Lead is lead, it is poisonous, you don't have to metabolize it. I don't need any additional problems in my life beyond the standard.

Lead poisoning: Spot symptoms and limit exposure-Lead poisoning - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

Learn about lead poisoning symptoms and treatment of lead exposure in children and adults. Explore ways to keep your kids safe from lead exposure.

www.mayoclinic.org

Other sources of lead exposure
Lead sometimes can also be found in:

• Soil. Lead particles from leaded gasoline or paint settle on soil and can last years. Lead-contaminated soil is still a major problem around highways and in some urban settings. Some soil close to walls of older houses contains lead.
• Household dust. Household dust can contain lead from lead paint chips or from contaminated soil brought in from outside.
• Pottery. Glazes found on some ceramics, china and porcelain can contain lead that can leach into food served or stored in the pottery.
• Toys. Lead is sometimes found in toys and other products produced abroad.
• Cosmetics. Tiro, an eye cosmetic from Nigeria, has been linked to lead poisoning.
• Herbal or folk remedies. Lead poisoning has been linked to greta and azarcon, traditional Hispanic medicines, as well as some from India, China and other countries.
• Mexican candy. Tamarind, an ingredient used in some candies made in Mexico, might contain lead.
• Lead bullets. Time spent at firing ranges can lead to exposure.
• Occupations. People are exposed to lead and can bring it home on their clothes when they work in auto repair, mining, pipe fitting, battery manufacturing, painting, construction and certain other fields.

Lead poisoning symptoms in adults
Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults might include:

• High blood pressure
• Joint and muscle pain
• Difficulties with memory or concentration
• Headache
• Abdominal pain
• Mood disorders
• Reduced sperm count and abnormal sperm
• Miscarriage, stillbirth or premature birth in pregnant women

I will just respectfully have to agree to disagree with you.

 

[bigngreen]

Some thoughts. I'd bet you're initial experiences with "X" bullets run back more than 20 years. Coni Brooks took her 300 Win mag. all over the place and killed a pile of different game, both here and in far-away places with the 130-grain bullet loaded fast with little or no trouble at all. If JB is anointed (not elected) pres., you're going to need a mono.

I've shot them from the original to the TTSX, the TTSX only solved the pencil issues on some you'd see from a TSX. I though I was 100% recovering every elk I shot as well, till I got to go into a situation where elk don't get out of your visibility and you can see exactly what happens. WAY more people have issue they just don't know it nor do they want to think that the clean miss was actually a hit just poor bullets or shot placement, when your out in the dead open there is not denying what happens when you pull the trigger!!

 

[bigngreen]

Lead is lead, it is poisonous, you don't have to metabolize it. I don't need any additional problems in my life beyond the standard.

Lead poisoning: Spot symptoms and limit exposure-Lead poisoning - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

Learn about lead poisoning symptoms and treatment of lead exposure in children and adults. Explore ways to keep your kids safe from lead exposure.

www.mayoclinic.org

Other sources of lead exposure
Lead sometimes can also be found in:

• Soil. Lead particles from leaded gasoline or paint settle on soil and can last years. Lead-contaminated soil is still a major problem around highways and in some urban settings. Some soil close to walls of older houses contains lead.
• Household dust. Household dust can contain lead from lead paint chips or from contaminated soil brought in from outside.
• Pottery. Glazes found on some ceramics, china and porcelain can contain lead that can leach into food served or stored in the pottery.
• Toys. Lead is sometimes found in toys and other products produced abroad.
• Cosmetics. Tiro, an eye cosmetic from Nigeria, has been linked to lead poisoning.
• Herbal or folk remedies. Lead poisoning has been linked to greta and azarcon, traditional Hispanic medicines, as well as some from India, China and other countries.
• Mexican candy. Tamarind, an ingredient used in some candies made in Mexico, might contain lead.
• Lead bullets. Time spent at firing ranges can lead to exposure.
• Occupations. People are exposed to lead and can bring it home on their clothes when they work in auto repair, mining, pipe fitting, battery manufacturing, painting, construction and certain other fields.

Lead poisoning symptoms in adults
Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults might include:

• High blood pressure
• Joint and muscle pain
• Difficulties with memory or concentration
• Headache
• Abdominal pain
• Mood disorders
• Reduced sperm count and abnormal sperm
• Miscarriage, stillbirth or premature birth in pregnant women

I will just respectfully have to agree to disagree with you.

If you don't metabolize it your not going to have it in your blood, we can only metabolize it as very, very fine particles so a chunk of lead just passes though like anything else, we are in actual danger of getting heavy metal poisoning from eating an animal that has metabolized it from the water or grasses, that's the actual danger, deer around mine sites with test way high, you eat them, you will test high even shooting a mono bullet.

 

[memtb]

Minus the added "benefit" of lead contamination.

Barnes Bullets (except for the Varmint Grenade) are "not" designed to fragment! They have however, over years, continued to improve upon alloys/tempering as to, get expansion down to 1700/ 1800 fps. It is rare that a Barnes loses petals....generally only if at very high impact velocity or heavy bone ( heavier than most elk bones) or a combination of the two!

While we have not killed the number of animals that some have killed, we kill more elk/moose than deer/antelope.....and have not had a failure, since we started using them in the early '90's! memtb

 

[Parkerized]

There is simply nothing that a copper bullet can do that a lead bullet can't do better. And, since the State of California, and many other Leftist fools are deathly afraid of lead, in all its forms, I use it whenever I can. Oh, and the EPA hates lead, and hunters, so...

And yes, I have used them all, old and new, here and in Africa, Give me a good old Nosler Partition any day.

 

[rellison312]

Do you aim for a different point of impact when using copper? Or is shoulder crease still the rule of thumb?

 

[BEEMAN]

I'm no expert on cooper. But since using the 124 HH out of my 6.5x47 I'm a believer. As far as different aim point I don't change. Quartering, frontal or broadside have all been DRT. Granted I use this gun out of tree stands, so shots have been close. Farthest has been a pronghorn at 200 yds broadside. Same result DRT. I was sceptical until I seen how good they work. All my other guns still are loaded with Berger's. I think I will slowly change some over to hammers. I'm not a true long range hunter though. 5-600 yds is my comfort zone.

 

[chindits]

Look at those x-rays and CT scans in the article again and tell me you aren't concerned about giving yourself lead poisoning

I'm not concerned. A lot of old timers just ate wild game around here because cattle were just for selling. I haven't heard an enviro rumor about these old timers passing to lead poisoning. Hell, they didn't even pass from hard work. I know this generation of thousand dollar hunters will never believe it. Just like the BLM won't believe there were tons of sage grouse in this basin when the sage was grazed heavy every spring before the high country melted out and predators were trapped, shot, and poisoned.

 

[bigngreen]

I'm not concerned. A lot of old timers just ate wild game around here because cattle were just for selling. I haven't heard an enviro rumor about these old timers passing to lead poisoning. Hell, they didn't even pass from hard work. I know this generation of thousand dollar hunters will never believe it. Just like the BLM won't believe there were tons of sage grouse in this basin when the sage was grazed heavy every spring before the high country melted out and predators were trapped, shot, and poisoned.

I remember as a kid large flocks of sage grouse, nice herds of bighorn sheep and a few dozen mt goats when there were 10,000 head of sheep and a few thousand head of cattle just in a few areas that this year I saw two sage grouse and the sheep are gone and only seen a couple goats up high.

 

[esshup]

I have a lot more things to worry about than lead in the game that I've shot. If you get rid of bloodshot meat, how much lead will you actully have in the meat? I'd be willing to bet that high cholesterol, and high blood pressure are more of a health concern than lead from lead bullets in game meat.