Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[ButterBean]

Being the pessimist that I am I doubt that anyone can hit a golf ball at 1000 yards with each shot no matter how good they are. I see the golf ball on the web site, but don't see where it says that they teach you to be able to do that. I did a fair amount of 1000 yard shooting in the Army and while we were not shooting the new precision rifles (Winchester Model 70 Match Rifles in 300 H&H Mag) keeping the shots in the 10 ring of a 1000 yard target was difficult enough. I went through the long range shooting introduction out at Vortex last January. The intro course is shot on their indoor 100 yard range using Ruger Precision Rifles chambered for the 6.5 Creepmore. The final exercise was to shoot a 5 shot group at an ace of spades card at 100 yards to see how tight a group you could shoot. One of my students, Kathy had come along and was taking the course with me, and my final group, as measured by the Vortex instructors was .856 (see attached photo and yes there are 5 shots there) Of course my student did better than I did, shooting a .650. (My students often outshoot me and I have absolutely no problem with that) The point here is that even shooting with modern rifles in a touted very good target caliber nobody's shots were going to hit a golf ball at 1000 yards, even indoors, prone with a rest, no wind, no mirage and no pressure at 1000 yards. I would love to see any of the Barbour Creek instructors shoot 10 out of 10 golf balls a 1000 yards. The one that is shown on the web site is a selling point, can it be done, yes. Can it be done on a regular basis? I doubt it and if they can show me how to do that even 5 out of 10 shots I will sign up for their course.

I'm in agreement

 

[xsn10s]

Off topic and out of context. But maybe this is a better representation of Barbour Creek. It's a class I'd like to attend.

xsn10s out.

 

[JTH]

Ordered some .308 205 bulldozers i think them beside the 203 hammer hht be a good comparison. Same day same gel same gun same distances

Would be very interesting to test them at distance for drift in a 10+ mph wind

 

[Petey308]

I'd love them to add a tip in the future but I don't see it happening.

Anybody got a bd2 gel test link?

He has a few. Here's one to start you out:

 

[Pdvdh]

Maybe that doe had a tungsten shoulder implant.

I certainly did that just this last year lol. I have it in video to prove it lol. The wounding I saw tricked me into misremembering how the deer was standing when I shot her. I later figured out my error though and corrected it.

I'm not saying Ray did this. I'm only saying I have lol.

Your story reminds me...
I used to archery hunt with a buddy that would bite the plastic stem off his pipe during the excitement, if whitetails would walk within ~15 yards of blind. I almost bought him some spare pipe stems.

He was about the only guy I knew that could shoot an arrow into the dirt in front of a deer's feet, with the deer standing a mere 10yds away.

If we didn't get excited, we probably wouldn't hunt.

 

[CMP70306]

Okay here's is the only time a long range rifle with poor BC bullets won't matter that much to me. https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1874-sharps-rifle/1874-long-range-express/

While I don't have the long range express I do have the Hartford and it is a sweet shooter. I visited the factory while I was in Montana on my honeymoon and they had some really nice rifles on the wall.

The Hammer cult and the owners of hammer told Brian Litz he didn't know what he was talking about when he exposed Hammers inflated BC's.

Well from what I recall part of the issue was that Litz tests bullets all the way through the transonic zone then develops a single BC based on that. The issue is that unlike the multitude of target bullets being used nobody is shooting Hammers below 1800 fps so the BC degradation between 1800 and 1100 fps is rather irrelevant. Just look at the below chart for the 155gr Full Bore bullet, there is a sharp decrease on the BC below 1500 fps. The difference between the average of the 3000-2000 band and the 3000 to 1500 band is .49 vs .462, a difference of 5% lower. Additionally many people are running the Hammers well above 3000 fps and per the chart there is an increase in BC associated with that though it doesn't show above 3100 fps to quantify how much.

Now I didn't see the data but if something as slick as a Berger is shedding BC that quick below 1800 fps I'm going to assume the PDR bands on the Hammers are dropping it even quicker. So now the much lower number on the bottom end is dragging down the overall BC number. Combine that with the fact that many people running the Hammers are doing so in excess of 3000 fps and rarely getting close to or below 2000 fps and you end up with a bit of a mismatch between Litz's Overall BC and what people are reporting.

 

[Northkill]

While I don't have the long range express I do have the Hartford and it is a sweet shooter. I visited the factory while I was in Montana on my honeymoon and they had some really nice rifles on the wall.
View attachment 490519View attachment 490520View attachment 490521



Well from what I recall part of the issue was that Litz tests bullets all the way through the transonic zone then develops a single BC based on that. The issue is that unlike the multitude of target bullets being used nobody is shooting Hammers below 1800 fps so the BC degradation between 1800 and 1100 fps is rather irrelevant. Just look at the below chart for the 155gr Full Bore bullet, there is a sharp decrease on the BC below 1500 fps. The difference between the average of the 3000-2000 band and the 3000 to 1500 band is .49 vs .462, a difference of 5% lower. Additionally many people are running the Hammers well above 3000 fps and per the chart there is an increase in BC associated with that though it doesn't show above 3100 fps to quantify how much.

View attachment 490523

Now I didn't see the data but if something as slick as a Berger is shedding BC that quick below 1800 fps I'm going to assume the PDR bands on the Hammers are dropping it even quicker. So now the much lower number on the bottom end is dragging down the overall BC number. Combine that with the fact that many people running the Hammers are doing so in excess of 3000 fps and rarely getting close to or below 2000 fps and you end up with a bit of a mismatch between Litz's Overall BC and what people are reporting.

Wow, what a collection ..and interesting thoughts on the BC issue.

 

[Petey308]

While I don't have the long range express I do have the Hartford and it is a sweet shooter. I visited the factory while I was in Montana on my honeymoon and they had some really nice rifles on the wall.
View attachment 490519View attachment 490520View attachment 490521



Well from what I recall part of the issue was that Litz tests bullets all the way through the transonic zone then develops a single BC based on that. The issue is that unlike the multitude of target bullets being used nobody is shooting Hammers below 1800 fps so the BC degradation between 1800 and 1100 fps is rather irrelevant. Just look at the below chart for the 155gr Full Bore bullet, there is a sharp decrease on the BC below 1500 fps. The difference between the average of the 3000-2000 band and the 3000 to 1500 band is .49 vs .462, a difference of 5% lower. Additionally many people are running the Hammers well above 3000 fps and per the chart there is an increase in BC associated with that though it doesn't show above 3100 fps to quantify how much.

View attachment 490523

Now I didn't see the data but if something as slick as a Berger is shedding BC that quick below 1800 fps I'm going to assume the PDR bands on the Hammers are dropping it even quicker. So now the much lower number on the bottom end is dragging down the overall BC number. Combine that with the fact that many people running the Hammers are doing so in excess of 3000 fps and rarely getting close to or below 2000 fps and you end up with a bit of a mismatch between Litz's Overall BC and what people are reporting.

This is why you should use a G7 BC and not a G1.

Look at the G7 numbers in your example. They don't change much at all. That's because it's more accurate for bullets of this shape.

 

[Rich Coyle]

WOW, I can not get my head around how a .338/300gr bullet splats on an antelope shoulder at what was probably modest velocity. The guy is sharing his experience and no argument there. Just when you shoot several deer close in with a full speed 165 grain cup and core out of a 30-06 and it blows through both shoulder can't conceive of .338/300gr splatting on such a light animal at way lower velocity, major misbehavior. Using cup and core lead bullet out of 06, 270 and 7-08 from 50y to 350y with nary a blowup nor failure to down animals couple dozen times makes me feel super lucky and wonder why others have such bad experiences.

About 50 years ago I had a 175 grain Honady, I think spire point, disintegrate on a blacktail deer shoulder at 13 steps. I switched to the Nosler Partition I75. Later I switched to Barnes and now I shoot Hammer 7mm 132 tipped and 8mm Hammer Hunter 198.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I know I have remembered which way an animal was facing when I shot. I also know that studies on memory of events shows that memory can fail us. So like I said before "Who knows".

The guy who was standing there looking at it.

 

[Snowboy]

Okay here's is the only time a long range rifle with poor BC bullets won't matter that much to me. https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1874-sharps-rifle/1874-long-range-express/

My Rolling Block 45-70 has taken many woodchuck and gallon milk jugs at 400 yards with cast bullets. Is that long range for a vernier tang peep sight?

 

[Snowboy]

It would be interesting if you were to shoot both bullets at as close to the same time as possible at distance using the same wind hold and see how much different they they actually hit for drift.

The reason I bought and now use a 300 magnum instead of a 45-70 for my big game hunts may have more to do with the best chance of hitting the spot for a quick kill than worrying too much about bullet performance. On the other hand I am impressed with how well most bullets do perform if properly placed.
I can't wait to get a 7mm PRC to see if it helps extend my comfort range a little.

 

[Petey308]

My Rolling Block 45-70 has taken many woodchuck and gallon milk jugs at 400 yards with cast bullets. Is that long range for a vernier tang peep sight?

I'd say it qualifies lol.

Check these videos out though, since you mentioned it.

 

[Teri Anne]

So you're saying a bullet that struck an animal at 200yds just "splattered" and didn't penetrate the animal at all? What was the impact velocity?

I would absolutely love to see actual documentation of this.

Look out people. PETA is now equipping animals with ballistic vests.