Bullet Construction vs Lethality
- Thread starter nralifer
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Gday terrianne
If you understood how long it takes me to type you may ease up on me a little lol
It's all cool I get where your coming from & I was liking the helpful side cohunt was sharing & also the other information & I've done that throughout my brief life on this internet thing now & then so I'm sorry for the confusion
Looks like some of the others are fixing on some esxciting stuff way over my head & skill set but be fun to watch
@Barehandlineman11 if I can offer any advice & if @ all possible would it be possible to put the scapula on a angle as a straight impact on a scapula penertrates easy ( even on bovines on certain parts it is easy to penertrate ) unless you happen to hit the spine of it then that also depends on angle of that impact as overall it's a soft bone in it's raw state
A much better resistance that gives us more inconsistent results quicker with a pill is the knuckle & once again different angles can also play out other bones/angles offer different traits of behaviours but I'll leave alone & I don't know if that's possible to impact with consistency for us to see patterns or not @ those distances & Im just passing on observations on resistances / impacts that I've seen wether applicable or you want to take on board or not is solely upto you of course & please please people I'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just trying to show we need to just broaden our thoughts a little & look @ why the weakness we exhibited ACTUALLY happened
& I applaud your efforts
Cheers
I actually planned on doing it both ways. I know people would say it failed because of x or because y so i plan on doing both. It'll definitely be month out atleast. But ill start new thread on it. Thanks for advice.Gday terrianne
If you understood how long it takes me to type you may ease up on me a little lol
It's all cool I get where your coming from & I was liking the helpful side cohunt was sharing & also the other information & I've done that throughout my brief life on this internet thing now & then so I'm sorry for the confusion
Looks like some of the others are fixing on some esxciting stuff way over my head & skill set but be fun to watch
@Barehandlineman11 if I can offer any advice & if @ all possible would it be possible to put the scapula on a angle as a straight impact on a scapula penertrates easy ( even on bovines on certain parts it is easy to penertrate ) unless you happen to hit the spine of it then that also depends on angle of that impact as overall it's a soft bone in it's raw state
A much better resistance that gives us more inconsistent results quicker with a pill is the knuckle & once again different angles can also play out other bones/angles offer different traits of behaviours but I'll leave alone & I don't know if that's possible to impact with consistency for us to see patterns or not @ those distances & Im just passing on observations on resistances / impacts that I've seen wether applicable or you want to take on board or not is solely upto you of course & please please people I'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just trying to show we need to just broaden our thoughts a little & look @ why the weakness we exhibited ACTUALLY happened
& I applaud your efforts
Cheers
I suppose any of those shot placements and scenarios would be as easy, or not as easy, in the real world out hunting lol. I agree though that as many scenarios tested the better, and for obvious reasons.Gday terrianne
If you understood how long it takes me to type you may ease up on me a little lol
It's all cool I get where your coming from & I was liking the helpful side cohunt was sharing & also the other information & I've done that throughout my brief life on this internet thing now & then so I'm sorry for the confusion
Looks like some of the others are fixing on some esxciting stuff way over my head & skill set but be fun to watch
@Barehandlineman11 if I can offer any advice & if @ all possible would it be possible to put the scapula on a angle as a straight impact on a scapula penertrates easy ( even on bovines on certain parts it is easy to penertrate ) unless you happen to hit the spine of it then that also depends on angle of that impact as overall it's a soft bone in it's raw state
A much better resistance that gives us more inconsistent results quicker with a pill is the knuckle & once again different angles can also play out other bones/angles offer different traits of behaviours but I'll leave alone & I don't know if that's possible to impact with consistency for us to see patterns or not @ those distances & Im just passing on observations on resistances / impacts that I've seen wether applicable or you want to take on board or not is solely upto you of course & please please people I'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just trying to show we need to just broaden our thoughts a little & look @ why the weakness we exhibited ACTUALLY happened
& I applaud your efforts
Cheers
Last edited:
Gday Aaron
You are correct in around about way so no lol in my eyes and I'll explain a little that hopefully gets people of this hate train & onto the clear ones head & we end up with even better pills
Then reality just hit me
oh well Hypothetical example
We as a individual sit in a blind or walk along & have a deer be present with x shot & do this time after time with good results yet this poor preforming bullet gets great results
Now take a pill that dosent have that particular weakness & covers that weakness area well & you take the hypothetical same shots same situation & you still have that dead deer right there , so why would we care to shoot anything else than the original & this was repeated again & again with same results so are we validated to say one is better than the other hmmm no way on the surface of that but if you watch patterns you will lesson the chance of the less than ideal result occurring
so I say yes but need to be careful in assuming a pill to early off a small data base but I also say you need to watch those who are doers not wannabes as the doers will give you good guidance & a few on here I like & they look for the wood in those trees & a pretty clear mind imo so to those ones keep up your good work
now This hypothetical pops up again
With both of them on that next presented shot& now the critter for whatever reason a slightly different detail of hits the spine of the scapula & watch the vastly different outcomes present itself
Yes that's not a nice situation to be in with the original & guilty of bad choices myself so I'm no angel
but we were validated if we choose the better pill & this is the hard part of finding those weaknesses so we can try & avoid & I personally don't like that especially the ones who say just stay off bone or hit bone
Now real life it may also not happen to a individual but I guarantee it will happen to someone
& you are hearing this from a bloke that was a frangible junkie & until he was sat down after one of those really poor results & walked through the hows & why this muppet only understood that day he was failing to see the wood in the trees & my true search for the holy grail of pills really started then
I've got mates that still fail to clear their heads today but I keep plugging away but a few have seen what I was talking about as I did from my mentor a lot of years ago rest his sole
Here's a picture I've put up previously of what I talk about
& yet I can show you same bullet same impact same resistance well slight difference & perfect preformance time after time but once you get enough critters on the ground you see patterns & observing those patterns you become aware what to start to look for & what to do to replicate or try a lot of today's pills cover a wider range than they once use too so it's why it's getting harder to see & first time in the last few years of my life I'm inviting people into my world that I hope I can help show what I've learnt & this crowd I can't thank enough as they are also teaching me so it's a win win I don't go off one offs to make that clear I replicate & can't do it shot after shot either but my strike rate is pretty good & I'm in a lucky position to do it & allowed me to form my data base of many different pills today
With these type of critters
when you autopsy them you get to the bottom of why that particular pill failed pretty quickly although it's not nice work & I've done way to many of these critters ( not all my poor shots or choices but I'll put my hand up for some )I was lucky to have a mentor guide me initially down that path of finding out why ( some you just can't get data of what went wrong but surprisingly it's not that difficult just stinks & that smell lingers for days sometimes but I have a few things now that make it easier ) today im just trying to pay forward what I've been lucky to have done & mentoring a couple young guys now & hopefully a young girl this season as she shows a lot of promise
I'll state again I'm no guru & not here to convince anyone I just ask them to clear their minds & oneday I'd love to have a full frank discussion with some pretty cool members here
But with this white noise crowd that plagues this forum I'd assume that is still a ways off so I'll just go back to my home forum & hammer away a little more with the great minds over there yep we all still have some more learning to do & myself more than some
Cheers
Hello, Brett.Gday Aaron
You are correct in around about way so no lol in my eyes and I'll explain a little that hopefully gets people of this hate train & onto the clear ones head & we end up with even better pills
Then reality just hit me
Hypothetical example
We as a individual sit in a blind or walk along & have a deer be present with x shot & do this time after time with good results yet this poor preforming bullet gets great results
Now take a pill that dosent have that particular weakness & covers that weakness area well & you take the hypothetical same shots same situation & you still have that dead deer right there , so why would we care to shoot anything else than the original & this was repeated again & again with same results so are we validated to say one is better than the other hmmm no way on the surface of that but if you watch patterns you will lesson the chance of the less than ideal result occurring
so I say yes but need to be careful in assuming a pill to early off a small data base but I also say you need to watch those who are doers not wannabes as the doers will give you good guidance & a few on here I like & they look for the wood in those trees & a pretty clear mind imo so to those ones keep up your good work
now This hypothetical pops up again
With both of them on that next presented shot& now the critter for whatever reason a slightly different detail of hits the spine of the scapula & watch the vastly different outcomes present itself
Yes that's not a nice situation to be in with the original & guilty of bad choices myself so I'm no angel
but we were validated if we choose the better pill & this is the hard part of finding those weaknesses so we can try & avoid & I personally don't like that especially the ones who say just stay off bone or hit bone
Now real life it may also not happen to a individual but I guarantee it will happen to someone
& you are hearing this from a bloke that was a frangible junkie & until he was sat down after one of those really poor results & walked through the hows & why this muppet only understood that day he was failing to see the wood in the trees & my true search for the holy grail of pills really started then
I've got mates that still fail to clear their heads today but I keep plugging away but a few have seen what I was talking about as I did from my mentor a lot of years ago rest his sole
Here's a picture I've put up previously of what I talk about
View attachment 489931& yet I can show you same bullet same impact same resistance well slight difference & perfect preformance time after time but once you get enough critters on the ground you see patterns & observing those patterns you become aware what to start to look for & what to do to replicate or try a lot of today's pills cover a wider range than they once use too so it's why it's getting harder to see & first time in the last few years of my life I'm inviting people into my world that I hope I can help show what I've learnt & this crowd I can't thank enough as they are also teaching me so it's a win win
I don't go off one offs to make that clear I replicate & can't do it shot after shot either but my strike rate is pretty good & I'm in a lucky position to do it & allowed me to form my data base of many different pills today
With these type of critters
View attachment 489932when you autopsy them you get to the bottom of why that particular pill failed pretty quickly although it's not nice work & I've done way to many of these critters ( not all my poor shots or choices but I'll put my hand up for some )
I was lucky to have a mentor guide me initially down that path of finding out why ( some you just can't get data of what went wrong but surprisingly it's not that difficult just stinks & that smell lingers for days sometimes but I have a few things now that make it easier ) today im just trying to pay forward what I've been lucky to have done & mentoring a couple young guys now & hopefully a young girl this season as she shows a lot of promise
I'll state again I'm no guru & not here to convince anyone I just ask them to clear their minds & oneday I'd love to have a full frank discussion with some pretty cool members here
But with this white noise crowd that plagues this forum I'd assume that is still a ways off so I'll just go back to my home forum & hammer away a little more with the great minds over there yep we all still have some more learning to do & myself more than some
Cheers
So what I deciphered out of that is bottom line, you're preaching to the choir. I believe you're trying to say that
happens out there and you need a good bullet that'll perform well even in the craziest and most unlikely circumstances. Yes, I think that's what we all want, hence preaching to the choir. Yes, as many different angles and shot placement scenarios tested, the better. As much real word testing on animals, the better. As much testing on worst case scenarios, the better- without causing an animal to suffer unnecessarily. You're beating around the bush a bit though, because in a roundabout way I believe you're ultimately saying Hammers are that bullet and you're saying anyone that says otherwise has clouded judgement and can't think clearly, and that they need to clear their minds. You're saying they have a bias towards other bullets and types of bullets as well. Is this correct? I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either. I'm not trying to be condescending, although I realize it's hard in text to show that well. I'm legitimately just trying to state the message clearly. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure that you will.
I admire anyone that is confident in their beliefs. This is seriously not about arguing for or against Hammers or any other bullet and which is best, or not the best, or any of that. I don't care about that nonsense. We could be talking about Badlands, Bergers, Hornadys, Sierras, Barnes, Nosler, and the list goes on. It doesn't matter.
I appreciate what you're doing testing bullets, and the Hammers, Brett. I really do. I wish you posted more about testing with other bullets too and showed the strengths and weaknesses of them as well. I know you tested and shared results with one of the Apex Afterburners, and you reference other bullets a lot, but I haven't seen many real breakdowns and explanations with those other bullets like you do with Hammers unless it's in comparison to Hammers. We'll take what we can get though. A focus on one bullet type is better than nothing. And a focus on weaknesses is better than nothing too. We can usually deduce from that what the strengths are anyway.
I feel like you're also trying to say there are lots of smart people in this forum that like to stroke their egos and act like experts, but since they're not reaching the same conclusions, and/or not using Hammers and not realizing they're the best bullet that has no weaknesses, they're ultimately wrong and aren't as knowledgeable and as much of an expert as they say or claim. Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. This is legitimately how I'm perceiving what you've said not just now, but in the last couple years on this forum.
Moving on… I'm no expert and no guru either. I have never claimed to be, yet I've still been labeled as a "self proclaimed expert". I'm not sure how you can be when you never actually make that claim though lol.
Anyway, I find the subject matter of terminal ballistics fascinating and I have a drive and passion for finding out what works best and how to get the best out of ANY hunting bullet. When I think I've discovered something, and I have supporting evidence to back it up, I like to share that with fellow hunters so hopefully they can try out that info themselves and maybe get more success from it. If nothing else, they can report back what actually happened and we can all learn from it- one way or another. A lot of what I've learned has actually been shared with me in a similar fashion. I'm grateful for that. A lot I've learned on my own too. I'd say that probably goes for most people.
I haven't given up on finding a do-it-all bullet, but I don't think it's best to focus on it. There are so many bullets out there already. So many people do indeed have favorites already. My more unique interest is figuring out how to get the best out of all those different options. I don't want to write off a bunch of bullets because of some poor results. I want to find out what really caused those poor results and how to prevent them while hopefully still being able to successfully use that bullet. So I look to find out the limitations of each bullet; the strengths and weaknesses of each bullet. I look for ways to quantify it all- things like what an adequate mass for a particular bullet is, the impact velocity windows for a particular bullet, what shot placement is best and for different scenarios, etc.
You seem to feel you've found the bullet that ticks all your boxes and you feel it's the best bullet not just for you, but for every hunter. That's great. I'm not arguing with what you feel. And for a lot of hunters and their style and approach, maybe Hammers are the best bullet for them. If it is, they should indeed use them. It's great they have that option and ability. I know you're not alone in those feelings too. There are many others here that clearly feel the same. I'm happy for them as well and do not dismiss or ignore their success with them. Some successes can be deceiving though, just like some "failures". So it's best to look at everything with an open mind and try to truly see all there is to see. That goes for any bullet and any situation and result.
There are still a TON of hunters that prefer a lead core bullet and it doesn't really matter why. Some will likely use them forever, or until they actually can't. There's no reason for anyone to bash on that or make them feel as though that's a terrible idea or terrible way of thinking and that they're going to end up only maiming an animal. That's extremely counterproductive behavior, and it's also not true.
There are also many hunters that prefer other monos. They may prefer the terminal behavior of them over lead. They may live and/or hunt in an area where lead core bullets are banned. They may just not like the idea of consuming lead or other animals consuming it inadvertently. The why doesn't really matter.
The list of copper bullet manufacturers seems to grow daily. They should all be given a fair chance and they deserve the same testing and to find their operating windows and that info should be shared to the hunting community as well. I'm here for it.
I truly believe there are ways to get any bullet to kill in a reliable and consistent manner. Some just have a very narrow window to accomplish that and it's not easy working under those tight conditions. It limits us too much and creates a much bigger chance of pushing it beyond those limits and outside that narrow window. An example of a bullet with a very narrow window (but can still be effective within that very narrow window) is a full metal jacket. I believe many would agree with that, and thus it's not a great choice for hunting. As bullet construction and composition changes though, that window changes in size as well. The chance of success increases or decreases depending on it.
I try to examine and test as many bullets as I can because I want to figure out as best as I can how each type and design works. I want to figure out how to get the most out of it, but also when, where, and why it tends to perform badly or just not so well. Marketing and the manufacturer tell us one thing, but it doesn't always work out that way. I strive to ignore the marketing and figure out what is really what.
I have many bullets still to test, including many monos, and that includes Hammers, Badlands, etc. Yes, I have Hammers in my shop right now ready to be loaded and tested. When I do, it will be unbiased and they'll be given the same fair and realistic chance any others get. My most recent test was an Apex Afterburner, but the testing and research on those is far from over. So far though, as stated in my findings I've posted, I'm impressed. And yes, that's a petal-shedding mono
. The bottom line of all this is that I believe I get what you're trying to say. I think in many ways we're on the same page. We do seem to differ on what our main goals and intentions are. You seem to be after finding the best bullet, which is fine- great even. I'm after finding out how to get the best out of each bullet and bullet type/design. That way we can pick the best bullet for our needs and preferences and not be limited to just one brand or type. I think that was in many ways the intent of the OP, but @nralifer will have to confirm or correct that. He just happens to own a mono bullet company, which most here know, so I think many may have jumped to the conclusion of his intent as in some way saying his bullets are more lethal. I think that's what started the pushing on the train- of which bullet is best from subconscious to conscious within the thread- and that has now derailed the train.
Also, as I mentioned in my previous post here in this thread (#24), my time is unfortunately extremely limited these days. I'm winding down my current career (about 8 years to go), and I hope that after I retire and after my kids are grown and out of the house, this will in many ways be my next career. Until then, I take what I can get and enjoy discussions and research outside of the actual testing.
We'll see if anyone actually reads this lol. I know it's long.
Agreed! My best WAG is that George (@nralifer) has posted his last response. I give him credit for his self-control and discipline not to engage in the **** show, unnecessarily, and I do not blame him a bit.
Nor do I.
If it is his last post on here, why not say so? He started the thread and told us to ask questions, which I did. No answer to my questions. I was only asking why he feels his design is best.
I don't think that's to much to ask from a bullet maker trying to promote his bullets.
I don't have a lot of experience with copper bullets and am very interested in all the designs. I won't say which two companies I've dealt with, but all my questions have been thoroughly answered by them.
Maybe he stepped away because this thread went completely off the rails on page 2 with accusations and some wanting to do nothing but argue and rant amongst one another.
Just curious, did you ask your questions to those companies on here or contact them directly? I'll bet some prefer to be contacted directly. Not saying either way is wrong or right or better than the other.
I'm not sure why he hadn't answered your question. I think it's a fair enough question to be answered publicly here.
Maybe he would have answered them all if the thread didn't turn into such a mess. I really don't know. I'm just speculating. I know he has another thread that's well over 1000 posts long now and it's a bit of a
show too. I saw George was responding in that thread when others were asking why he wasn't in this one. Perhaps he's being pulled in several directions and just forgetting to come back to all questions. Who knows but him…I would recommend, however, that if you are serious about your questions and interests in his bullets, you contact him directly. Seems only fair and logical.
xsn10s
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 7,638
Petey308 I got answers first from the other companies on forums. Then had more questions answered over the phone and email. Just seems to me that potential customers questions aren't important. Others asked questions too, with no reply.
Why start a thread like this then disappear? We've all been on here long enough to know what's going to happen with a thread like this. It's unfortunate, because lots of people have legitimate questions and are not trying to stir the pot. Only want answers.
Why start a thread like this then disappear? We've all been on here long enough to know what's going to happen with a thread like this. It's unfortunate, because lots of people have legitimate questions and are not trying to stir the pot. Only want answers.
I understand. Hopefully you get them. I see he hasn't been online since 3:45pm, my time, yesterday. So maybe with the tags he got in this thread recently he'll come back when he gets back on and answer those questions. Who knows.
