Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[memtb]

I've ordered everything including the 203hht hammers to do that test. I was originally going to do 100 and 1000 but thinking about it I think every company does 100. And off people's interest of up close. Im thinking 40 yards and 1000. Im thinking after with best bullets in the 30 cal ill do a gel test with a scabula in the mold. Get better idea how these 6.5 will do at 1000.

How about a scapula from a mature elk or moose…..not a small doe deer or antelope! Jus Say'n…..size and rigidity matter! memtb

 

[Barehandlineman11]

Ill use whatever i can get hands on. But i feel deer size game is 75% of game taken. I understand gel testing isn't equivalent too a animal. But its the only controlled test you can do even if you shoot game. Youll never get a animal to stand in same position at 1000 yards to test that many bullets. Or the same animal. And same environmental impact on shot placement. I just haven't decided on the mixture 10% or 20%.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I've ordered everything including the 203hht hammers to do that test. I was originally going to do 100 and 1000 but thinking about it I think every company does 100. And off people's interest of up close. Im thinking 40 yards and 1000. Im thinking after with best bullets in the 30 cal ill do a gel test with a scabula in the mold. Get better idea how these 6.5 will do at 1000.

I appreciate you taking on this task. I know the threads OP states 1000 and this will be very informative. I'd be willing to contribute $ and any components to your testing and see something in the 700-800 range as well. I think many of us think 1k, it's the number many strive for and has kind of become the norm for LR shooting setups. In the real life field conditions of all my hunting of over 49 years, I've never shot at any big game animal at over 700 yards. I'd really like to see some testing done at the 700-800 range. Let me know. If I lived in your area I'd be driving to help. Again thanks for taking on this task!

 

[Barehandlineman11]

No problem, @Huntnful is going to help me. Hes got his norma shooting the eldm and mine a tips. Hes got 6.5 prc with the 147's well try. Plus a whitness. I also will video it if i can figure out how to live stream it. I wont do load work on the bullets im testing ill just load ten get on target then shoot the gel. I don't think itll matter how bullet performs. I know hammers like redlined so ill give it nitrous. (N570).

 

[cohunt]

Well that partially answered the original question, but not. Replications, even though done in a most scientific manner cannot replicate the real thing. Thinking something will work like this is not the same as actually seeing what happens in a real life scenario. The other part of the question was how many shots did it take to actually hit the gel target? It has been my experience that on a established 1000 yard range, with a target rifle it is not all that easy to put a shot in the 10 - X ring of a 1000 yard target, much less out in the wilderness dealing with shifting and gusting winds. The sweet spot on an Elk measures around 10 inches which is 1 MOA at 1000 yards. Doing a shot like this with a hunting rifle under way less than ideal conditions while not possible, is highly improbable for a first round hit in the bread basket. The other thing that while hunting bullets these days closely approximate match grade bullets for accuracy, I would still like to see the penetration and bullet expansion results of a bullet into the gel at 1000 yards, not something simulated. I think that the results would be enlightening. Maybe one of the ammo manufacturers would like to take on this challenge, but then again probably not since it might disprove accuracy and expansion claims.

Barbour creek teaches you to shoot golf balls at 1000 at the end of the first day iirc,-- take a look at his school's and website--- pretty sure he doesn't have much trouble hitting gel blocks at 1000-- when your job is to shoot and teach long range shooting 365 days a year- you get pretty good at it.

 

[cohunt]

As far as expanding vs penetrating for rifles-- didn't federal ammo contract the sost 223 and 7.62 ammo for the mil?-- soft lead nose and solid copper base, iirc its about the only bullet that would pass the glass penetration tests? " barrier blind" ammo

 

[xsn10s]

As far as expanding vs penetrating for rifles-- didn't federal ammo contract the sost 223 and 7.62 ammo for the mil?-- soft lead nose and solid copper base, iirc its about the only bullet that would pass the glass penetration tests? "Blind barrier" ammo

I'm not sure if Federal won that contract or not. I do know they did a big study to figure out a design to defeat glass (windshields) with the least amount of deflection. If memory serves me correctly it was a big lead nose and kinda solid base, but maybe not in the traditional sense. At least in the .223/ 5.56.

 

[Petey308]

I'll use whatever i can get hands on. But i feel deer size game is 75% of game taken. I understand gel testing isn't equivalent to an animal. But it's the only controlled test you can do even if you shoot game. Youll never get an animal to stand in same position at 1000 yards to test that many bullets. Or the same animal. And same environmental impact on shot placement. I just haven't decided on the mixture 10% or 20%.

Any data is worth considering. The individual considering it can take it for whatever it's worth to them.

I appreciate you taking the time and the opportunity you have to do anything you present to the rest of us.

 

[cohunt]

I'm not sure if Federal won that contract or not. I do know they did a big study to figure out a design to defeat glass (windshields) with the least amount of deflection. If memory serves me correctly it was a big lead nose and kinda solid base, but maybe not in the traditional sense. At least in the .223/ 5.56.

Mk319 mod 0 lake city/Federal for the 7.62 for sure

 

[xsn10s]

Mk319 mod 0 lake city/Federal for the 7.62 for sure

The bullet I worked with was of a different design. But the one design I worked with was more geared towards LE. The military stuff that and others designs were chosen. But that was more geared towards the war on terrorism.

 

[xsn10s]

Mk319 mod 0 lake city/Federal for the 7.62 for sure

That was back in 2005-2008 so times/ needs might have changed. But when I worked on stuff like that the military wasn't concerned with glass penetration. Or at least I wasn't aware of them wanting/ need that.

 

[Petey308]

How about a scapula from a mature elk or moose…..not a small doe deer or antelope! Jus Say'n…..size and rigidity matter! memtb

Here's a scapula of an elk and a white tail side by side. Take it for what you will. Maybe it's worth nothing . That's ok.

It's amazing arrows and spears get through those things…

 

[xsn10s]

Here's a scapula of an elk and a white tail side by side. Take it for what you will. Maybe it's worth nothing . That's ok.

It's amazing arrows and spears get through those things…

View attachment 489776View attachment 489777

I'd like to see those placed at the average location under the skin. That way if/ once expansion of the nose section occurs we can measure petals sluffing off and possible deflection of rear core path.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Was guiding/helping on a trophy bull hunt in unit 9 AZ in 2018. Called a bull into 24 yards opening morning. Watched a arrow barely penetrate the shoulder area on a dead broadside shot, (poor shot). Bull took off and after 4-5 running steps arrow was out. After examining arrow it was determined it penetrated maybe 3". Tip of the arrow looked like it hit a piece of concrete. Bow was a 70lb draw weight Bowtech. I've seen them blow through deer shoulders. Crazy how tough those are.