Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[JAYgs8163]

All of it matters friend. If it didn't we'd all be shooting one bullet. My muzzleloader is accurate with numerous bullets from 250-300 grain bullets but some have better ballistic characteristics. The one that worked the best in accuracy and ballistically also happened to have the highest BC factor. In this case for me it meant having a bullet that shot flatter, longer, and also was able to retain the most velocity at any given distance. Just my experience and not an opinion. If your goal is to shoot closer range I can respect that, but it's also ok to respect one's decision that has done the work, research and practiced and then takes that to the field "to hunt". Just because someone has put the work in, effort, research and dedication (practice) to be able to accurately shoot at longer ranges doesn't make them any less of a hunter than someone that wants to stalk within 100-200 yards. I shot my Coues buck last year at 307 yards with my 45 CVA Acura after some mods I made to it and A LOT of research and practice. It's all part of the "hunt" and all of it matters. Respect, Joe

 

[fishdundee]

So how 'bout we approach berger about making a bonded bullet? Can't believe their marketing department hasn't done it already.

 

[Petey308]

So how 'bout we approach berger about making a bonded bullet? Can't believe their marketing department hasn't done it already.

Maybe @Stokesrjsr can answer that or at least provide some insight.

I'm not sure the marketing department decides what to make though. Well, maybe I'm pretty sure they don't lol.

 

[Rich Coyle]

You are right, technology changes, however physics physiology do not. I have looked at Hammer bullets and I'm hard pressed to see the science behind it. In fact, I really don't see any science behind it. Bullets have been coming apart for years. It was established a long time ago that bullet weight, design and construction was a far more important factor in penetration than velocity. ( Dr. Martin Fackler--Gene Woolberg) Large wounds in soft tissue is not an indication of killing power. Reliable penetration to blood carrying organs, and ventilating the closed circulatory system or a central nervous system upset are the two thing you can put science behind, whether it's two legged or four legged critters. Hypovolemic shock ( Blood loss). animals can not survive without that red stuff in their veins or an intact brain or spinal column. Published results of all of these boutique bullet companies is anecdotal and of course only successes are shown. No on ever shows their failures. I'm sorry Brother but I'm not of the belief that if you say it enough it becomes the truth. There are truly a lot of great bullet and ammo companies out there most of them have lived or died on the successes and failures. Companies like Woodleigh, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw and A Frame cut their teeth on dangerous African game animals, which I will readily admit are tough SOBs, however there is no magic bullet. Shot placement is still the primary consideration to put down any critter. Penetration is the next. Expansion is a gift but should never be used to give up penetration. Bullet weight is a primary consideration in penetration. That's why so many of the professionals in Africa still rely on solids for dangerous game. No hard feeling Pal, just stating things I know in 50 years in the bullet/ammo business.

You remind me of a couple engineers I worked with. Observable facts didn't change their opinions.

I worked with a guy who claimed he had seventeen years experience. I told him he had six months experience thirty-four times. He had not learned anything new.

 

[Pdvdh]

So how 'bout we approach berger about making a bonded bullet? Can't believe their marketing department hasn't done it already.

Then maybe I could stop seating them butt end forward?

 

[nralifer]

Sounds interesting but if the round is accurate is all need. I have seen animsls hit in the vitals and keep going. To me BC means nothing. It's just a number to me. I hunt , not just try to shoot a animal off the other mountain. A few can do it, but most cannot.

Not going to necessarily argue with you , but we obviously think BC is important in a long range hunting bullet discussion. Fact is that every manufacturer of bullets will acknowledge that it extends the range where by the bullet retains energy. The sort of standard that many hunters adhere to is 1000 fr-lbs of bullet energy as an adequate minimum for Deer and Elk. Well, the higher BC bullet will reach that energy threshold further down range than will a lower BC bullet going the same MV or even faster.

 

[xsn10s]

You are right, technology changes, however physics physiology do not. I have looked at Hammer bullets and I'm hard pressed to see the science behind it. In fact, I really don't see any science behind it. Bullets have been coming apart for years. It was established a long time ago that bullet weight, design and construction was a far more important factor in penetration than velocity. ( Dr. Martin Fackler--Gene Woolberg) Large wounds in soft tissue is not an indication of killing power. Reliable penetration to blood carrying organs, and ventilating the closed circulatory system or a central nervous system upset are the two thing you can put science behind, whether it's two legged or four legged critters. Hypovolemic shock ( Blood loss). animals can not survive without that red stuff in their veins or an intact brain or spinal column. Published results of all of these boutique bullet companies is anecdotal and of course only successes are shown. No on ever shows their failures. I'm sorry Brother but I'm not of the belief that if you say it enough it becomes the truth. There are truly a lot of great bullet and ammo companies out there most of them have lived or died on the successes and failures. Companies like Woodleigh, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw and A Frame cut their teeth on dangerous African game animals, which I will readily admit are tough SOBs, however there is no magic bullet. Shot placement is still the primary consideration to put down any critter. Penetration is the next. Expansion is a gift but should never be used to give up penetration. Bullet weight is a primary consideration in penetration. That's why so many of the professionals in Africa still rely on solids for dangerous game. No hard feeling Pal, just stating things I know in 50 years in the bullet/ammo business.

Agreed.

 

[xsn10s]

Not going to necessarily argue with you , but we obviously think BC is important in a long range hunting bullet discussion. Fact is that every manufacturer of bullets will acknowledge that it extends the range where by the bullet retains energy. The sort of standard that many hunters adhere to is 1000 fr-lbs of bullet energy as an adequate minimum for Deer and Elk. Well, the higher BC bullet will reach that energy threshold further down range than will a lower BC bullet going the same MV or even faster.

Yup I agree BC maters. We all can dial in the drop for a given distance but the one variable for LONG RANGE hunting that causes misses is wind. A incorrect wind call will cause a miss and a lower BC bullet will have more wind deflection, thus increasing the probability of a miss or bad hit.

 

[ButterBean]

Yup I agree BC maters. We all can dial in the drop for a given distance but the one variable for LONG RANGE hunting that causes misses is wind. A incorrect wind call will cause a miss and a lower BC bullet will have more wind deflection, thus increasing the probability of a miss or bad hit.

Yeah it maters, it matters how much you have to hold for the wind, if you run the numbers and look at them side by side on paper….. it's a small matter IMHO you gotta hold for the wind regardless.
No matter what bullet you use if you have enough time on the trigger with a chosen combination it shouldn't really matter, pick your poison and practice, and now we're right back to the same old conversation so let's get the cup and core vs mono's argument started

 

[xsn10s]

Yeah it maters, it matters how much you have to hold for the wind, if you run the numbers and look at them side by side on paper….. it's a small matter IMHO you gotta hold for the wind regardless.
No matter what bullet you use if you have enough time on the trigger with a chosen combination it shouldn't really matter, pick your poison and practice, and now we're right back to the same old conversation so let's get the cup and core vs mono's argument started

Every true long range shooter/ hunter knows how much it matters. That's why you don't see low bc bullets excelling in long range competitions. Heck you don't even see them at 600 yard competitions, which is just where long range begins.

 

[ButterBean]

Every true long range shooter/ hunter knows how much it matters. That's why you don't see low bc bullets excelling in long range competitions. Heck you don't even see them at 600 yard competitions, which is just where long range begins.

As I said yhe age old argument and has nothing to do with the OP yet here we are

 

[xsn10s]

As I said yhe age old argument and has nothing to do with the OP yet here we are

It sure does especially in a long range hunting forum. Because if you miss or make a bad hit you decrease the lethality of any bullet.

 

[LDHunter]

Thank you for the long explanation. It was VERY educational to me

YES!!! Thanks to NRALifer for the excellent discussion of copper bullet design and performance. I've never been a fan of all copper bullets but now have a much greater understanding of them.

 

[Petey308]

I'm starting this thread to discuss issues regarding the materials, design and construction of rifle hunting bullets in so far as it relates to lethality, which, for the purposes of the thread, will be defined as the ability of the bullet to penetrate deeply at any impact angle or distance up to 1000 yds to reach vital organs and effect a one shot kill rapidly. Factors to consider are BC, ductility of bullet material, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy (<1MOA), weight retention, type of expansion ( petal vs mushrooming vs explosive vs petal shedding).

I've quoted the OP and boldened the parts that apply to the following:


What are we supposed to be discussing here in this particular thread if we can't talk about things like cup and core vs mono and BC? It's a thread about bullet construction…. and obviously the BC a particular bullet has is a result of its design and construction. It's also a thread about how those things affect lethality.

A more accurate and predictable bullet that is less prone to shooter error and thus hits as close to where we were intending, the better. And if it does hit off the mark a bit, it hopefully is constructed in a way that makes it forgiving to that by producing wide wounding to still do what it takes to kill quick and clean- to be lethal.

The emphasis in this forum is long range hunting. So BC ought to matter and factor in. It at least shouldn't be made out as though it doesn't. If it doesn't to you, great, but it matters to others a whole lot. It matters in this particular discussion regardless.