Berger HUNTING Bullets

[RockyMtnMT]

In the last week of reading this thread I have held my thoughts. All I care to offer is that we should all use the bullet we want. We have many great choices. Our choices are defined by the way we hunt, the distances, the caliber we choose and what we personally have in mind of terminal performance. I have said it before and will say it again. There is no perfect bullet for all situations. No hit into a live animal will ever be the same as another. Too many variables. Distance, impact velocity, caliber size, bullet weight, sectional density, angle of the shot, what the bullet went through first etc etc. Some like what controlled bullets do close but not at distance, some like what fragmenting bullets do at distance but not up close. Use what ever you want, but know how it works best and at what impact velocity range. Place it where it works best and use everything you know about how the bullet works to give you the best advantage and the animal the quickest kill.

It seems we are becoming a group that demands first round kills. That is all fine and can happen a large percentage of the time if we do the job of good placement and angle of pass through. But the fact is these animals have a strong will to live and escape. If we do our job well with what ever bullet we choose I firmly believe we will al be successful. But when we don't we need to lay the blame where it truly belongs. The most important part of hunting at any distance is knowing when not to shoot. Only take shots inside our practiced skill set.

In the past week while reading this discussion we have taken another 5 elk. All with Berger bullets and an array of distances and shooter skill. The bullets performed well as expected. One left the immediate area because it was hit low and forward in the brisket. We tracked it to where it bedded following a blood trail out both sides in the snow. The blood loss was huge and it amazed me the elk got up and traveled that far. It was clearly shot placement at fault once we found the elk. I wont blame the bullet or expect it to have magical powers. In all this 2015 season with the management hunt we hosted we have taken well over 50 elk, I have not counted for a while and it could be well over 60. More than probably 80% of these elk were taken with Bergers. 7mm, 30cal and 338. I was there for all but a few of these. I don't doubt some people have problems, and the problems may have been less with a different bullet choice. That's why all bullets are not made the same. So we do have a choice to what we use. But what we know is that any of our choices will kill effectively with good placement. I am sorry that is just my opinion after seeing first hand what goes on in the field with 100's of elk, deer and antelope kills.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, good luck hunting , if we place our shots well I think we will al be just fine. Its hunting, and never a sure thing with all the variables involved.

Jeff

Yep. Gotta have the follower ready. Especially with elk. The will to live with any animal is simply amazing.

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

Steve

 

[cowboy]

I have tried to stay out of this but it seems the Berger publicity has increased substantially as of late. Maybe it is due to the fact that many more Bergers are being used, maybe poor shot placement, maybe it's Bergers raw material they are using or the dies that are punching out the pills. What ever it is - it is happening.

I've used Bergers on game for as long as anyone on this forum I would guess. When we first started using them Berger didn't have a hunting bullet, a target bullet, hybrid, OTM and all that stuff. They just had one type bullet and they all came in a yellow box.
There were naesayers but we kept on using them - and still do.

I had my first documented Berger not expand a while back that I can prove after shooting A LOT of animals. I have that bullet in my possession. I never went on any forums with pictures and bashing but I did go to the source and never got any conclusive answers. It put doubt in my mind, where there is doubt there is suspicion, where there is suspicion, there is concern. Just last week another occurance took place
with a custom 7 Dakota using 180 VLD hunting bullets. No bullet retrieved but all indications are it penciled. Why - chit happens is the only thing I can come up with.

We tested Bergers in the past to the best of our ability. I've pinched the tips shut, I've soldered the tips shut - all with inconclusive repeatable results to try and figure out why one in so many do something out of the norm.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the Berger team is a class act and they sure had an important influence on the LR hunting upsurge in the last few years and I have nothing but respect and gratitude for what they have done for the shooting sports.

You have guys trimming the meplat, pointing the tips etc. etc. and Berger says they do not recommend that. Berger does not come out publicly and recommend any target-hybrid bullet of theirs for use on game to my knowledge yet we have guys on here that say they have 100's of kills and proof that they are the best thing since bullets were invented. Who is correct? We are confusing each other is all we are doing.

There is one thing I will say since my Berger scare. I no longer use any Berger bullet that has not had the tip opening or the cavity to the lead core checked before it goes as a hunting round. Some people will say BS - I ain't buying a bullet I have to doctor up - fine don't.

My concern is that this whole mess is going to turn around and be used as anything over X number of yards is unethical. If B&C or any other fuzzy hugger organization wants any new ammunition for there next ethical proculmation they'll just pull bits and pieces out of this and have Wayne Van Whoever do a cover story.

I have come to the conclusion that it can and does happen that a Berger does not expand - no question there - way too many reports and odds say they were not all pizz poor placement shots. My retrieved bullet was not a pizz poor placed shot. There is a lot of experience, knowledge and brain power on this forum and I would love to keep shooting Bergers with 100% confidence so someone needs to steer me in that direction because if I retrieve one more non expanded Berger bullet it'll be time to try the next newest and greatest thing on the market.

I would love to see this thread turn around to admitting it can happen and finding a solution as how we can prevent it.

 

[Methow Packer]

Stocked a 6x6 Bull for an hour. Got within 60yards of him. Had a shot between the trees at just behind the shoulder. 300WM and 185VLD. I thought this going to be an interesting out come. The Bull was DRT. Great meat by the way. The outcome. I was very pleased with the performance. I believe this is what the bullet is suppose to do. Small entrance then scrambled the inside almost beyond recognition. No exit hole. What more could you ask for especially at @ 60yards

 

[mtwarych]

Why are questions about the reliability of cup and core bullets coming up again?

Didn't the shooting community cover this same argument in the late 60's early 70's?

Am I aging myself?

Why did projectile manufacturers start building partition or bonded bullets?

How does any of this information surprise anybody?

Due to personal experience I will not shoot cup and core bullets.

 

[Conrad]

I think the Berger bullets have a lot going for them. I don't have to have a DRT kill, and sometimes animals, especially larger ones, are dead on their feet and just don't know it yet. The thing that concerns me is the lack of blood trail that seems to be a underlying theme at least a notable percentage of the time. If the animal walks off into the thick stuff to die I need a way to find it.

I drank the 215 hybrid kool aid and shot a cow elk a few weeks ago. She absorbed the shot at 275 yards, and walked 50 to 75 yards into the trees and tipped over. Heart was nonexistent but there wasn't a drop of blood leading up to her. Bullet was found on the offside hide expanded and about 25-30% weight retention just as Berger prescribes. I don't consider any of this a bullet failure but it all comes down to the type of performance you desire. I feel like blood trails are important so I'm not sure what to think right now.

 

[Pdvdh]

There is no perfect bullet for all situations. No hit into a live animal will ever be the same as another. Too many variables. Distance, impact velocity, caliber size, bullet weight, sectional density, angle of the shot, what the bullet went through first etc etc. Some like what controlled bullets do close but not at distance, some like what fragmenting bullets do at distance but not up close. Use what ever you want, but know how it works best and at what impact velocity range. Place it where it works best and use everything you know about how the bullet works to give you the best advantage and the animal the quickest kill.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, good luck hunting , if we place our shots well I think we will al be just fine. Its hunting, and never a sure thing with all the variables involved.

Jeff

Good comments Jeff,

I thought I might add another option relative to the section of your post I have bolded. I believe some controlled expansion bullets are more reliable for use at close range, higher velocity impacts. This is particularly important where I hunt because of the numerous bear encounters an Alaskan hunter may have over a hunting career. Most bears would rather leave than fight, but I want to be best prepared for the few that may decide to pick a fight. I've loaded and used what I believe to be the most reliable controlled expansion bullets available for close range defense of life use for many years now. Those bullets are always carried in my magazine, and they're the ones I'm betting on to win any fights with bears. In addition, if I happen to be presented with a closer range shot at a game animal, I'll as likely as not fire one of my bear loads, because they normally cause less meat damage than a fragmenting bullet design, and they're plenty accurate enough for any closer range shots on large game.

But my bear defense bullets aren't a great choice for long range hunting, primarily because of their lower BC values and a lesser level of accuracy than Berger, Amax - type frangible bullets. So I'm currently using Berger bullets for long range shots on game, and those are the loads I spend the majority of load development time on, to develop the accuracy necessary for long range engagements. For any truely long range shots, I dump the bear loads in the magazine, and load the Bergers single shot style.

A different approach for consideration. Not trying to preach. Just wanted to mention that this is an alternative to selecting a single bullet for all hunting shots. Some have stated they consider this a handicapp where they hunt, so that must be the case. It's never handicapped me in any way, but I've been hunting in Alaska for the past 37 years - almost solely. With this approach I have the most confidence in defense of life situations with large bear or moose, where the bullets will be impacting at high velocity at short distances from the muzzle, and my shot selection options are limited to frontal exposures.

 

[Pdvdh]

I would love to see this thread turn around to admitting it can happen and finding a solution as how we can prevent it.

cowboy shared a few pictures of his unexpanded bullet with me. We discussed this in private, and I think it's useful information to report that he told me the jacket tip on that bullet was closed. Closed meaning the jacket material was pinched together at the tip of the bullet, so that there was no hollow/hole in the copper jacket within the tip of the bullet. The reason he was able to recover this bullet was because it traveled length wise down the animal. This bullet probably would have exited on a broadside shot, never to have been recovered.

The three bullets I've had shoot thru animals that I know failed to expand never tumbled, and could not be recovered. Only one of the three was a Berger. The other two were Nosler Ballistic Tips. All three animals were recovered, but additional killing shots were required in all three instances. And one of the three instances was a three-ring circus before the bear was stopped.

 

[Mossy49]

Live in Alaska, I'll start out saying I haven't shot any big game animals with a Berger bullet. Now I will say I've loaded them in my 300 RUM custom Rifle and they shoot extremely nice on paper and steel. For me I stick with the trusty old 200 grain Accubond out of it for big game hunting. This isn't a long range kill, but it's my first moose (51 1/4 incher) at 245 yards with the Accubond and it was DRT, bullet placement was about 2 inches behind the front shoulder, took out both lungs and bullet traveled all the way through and was stopped just on the other side sticking out of skin. Realize that this roughly 2 1/2 feet or to 3 ft wide animal. Love the Bergers for steel and paper,but I'll stick with Nosler Accubonds for my game hunting. Just my opinion and I'll stick with that. Have a happy Thanksgiving and eat some food and enjoy the day!!!!!!

 

[WildRose]

I used to not do that but after having several animals drop then then stand back up namely aoudad i learned my lesson. My first sheep looked dead as could be for ~15minutes then stood back up with a full head of steam out of nowhere.

I lost what was without a doubt a state record white tail back around 88.

It was getting late and this buck I'd only caught glimpses of for three years walked up to a wheat field full of deer, snorted one time and cleared every other buck in the field out. He was well over 200" with a total of 21 points that I could discern in the scope and easily a 28" spread.

He trots out to a point about 400yds from my shooting position and with it being so late I decided to go for a neck shot to ensure either a clean kill or a clean miss.

All four legs instantly folded and he hit the ground absolutely stone dead... . Or so I thought.

I hurried up to where he lay and he kicked one time and I was about to put a finisher in him "just in case" and thought, no, don't do it you might bust a horn and so I opted to just use a knife and laid down my rifle.

Just as I walked up for the stick, he jumped up, spun around and disappeared into the darkness. In retrospect the shot was a couple of inches over the spine and the shock had just knocked him out for a minute. I saw him one last time six weeks or so later doing just fine but as old as he was I don't think he made it through the winter as we had a pretty hard february/march that year.

It's those painful lessons we learn best.

 

[WildRose]

In the last week of reading this thread I have held my thoughts. All I care to offer is that we should all use the bullet we want. We have many great choices. Our choices are defined by the way we hunt, the distances, the caliber we choose and what we personally have in mind of terminal performance. I have said it before and will say it again. There is no perfect bullet for all situations. No hit into a live animal will ever be the same as another. Too many variables. Distance, impact velocity, caliber size, bullet weight, sectional density, angle of the shot, what the bullet went through first etc etc. Some like what controlled bullets do close but not at distance, some like what fragmenting bullets do at distance but not up close. Use what ever you want, but know how it works best and at what impact velocity range. Place it where it works best and use everything you know about how the bullet works to give you the best advantage and the animal the quickest kill.

It seems we are becoming a group that demands first round kills. That is all fine and can happen a large percentage of the time if we do the job of good placement and angle of pass through. But the fact is these animals have a strong will to live and escape. If we do our job well with what ever bullet we choose I firmly believe we will al be successful. But when we don't we need to lay the blame where it truly belongs. The most important part of hunting at any distance is knowing when not to shoot. Only take shots inside our practiced skill set.

In the past week while reading this discussion we have taken another 5 elk. All with Berger bullets and an array of distances and shooter skill. The bullets performed well as expected. One left the immediate area because it was hit low and forward in the brisket. We tracked it to where it bedded following a blood trail out both sides in the snow. The blood loss was huge and it amazed me the elk got up and traveled that far. It was clearly shot placement at fault once we found the elk. I wont blame the bullet or expect it to have magical powers. In all this 2015 season with the management hunt we hosted we have taken well over 50 elk, I have not counted for a while and it could be well over 60. More than probably 80% of these elk were taken with Bergers. 7mm, 30cal and 338. I was there for all but a few of these. I don't doubt some people have problems, and the problems may have been less with a different bullet choice. That's why all bullets are not made the same. So we do have a choice to what we use. But what we know is that any of our choices will kill effectively with good placement. I am sorry that is just my opinion after seeing first hand what goes on in the field with 100's of elk, deer and antelope kills.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, good luck hunting , if we place our shots well I think we will al be just fine. Its hunting, and never a sure thing with all the variables involved.

Jeff

Same to you and yours Broz.

Like I've been saying since the first "bullet performance" thread I posted on, "There ain't no magic bullets".

 

[WildRose]

Why are questions about the reliability of cup and core bullets coming up again?

Didn't the shooting community cover this same argument in the late 60's early 70's?

Am I aging myself?

Why did projectile manufacturers start building partition or bonded bullets?

How does any of this information surprise anybody?

Due to personal experience I will not shoot cup and core bullets.

This isn't about cup and core bullet problems and I've read probably every post in the thread.

I too however agree that my preference runs to the bonded bullets and I'm warming up to monomentals.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

I lost what was without a doubt a state record white tail back around 88.

It was getting late and this buck I'd only caught glimpses of for three years walked up to a wheat field full of deer, snorted one time and cleared every other buck in the field out. He was well over 200" with a total of 21 points that I could discern in the scope and easily a 28" spread.

He trots out to a point about 400yds from my shooting position and with it being so late I decided to go for a neck shot to ensure either a clean kill or a clean miss.

All four legs instantly folded and he hit the ground absolutely stone dead... . Or so I thought.

I hurried up to where he lay and he kicked one time and I was about to put a finisher in him "just in case" and thought, no, don't do it you might bust a horn and so I opted to just use a knife and laid down my rifle.

Just as I walked up for the stick, he jumped up, spun around and disappeared into the darkness. In retrospect the shot was a couple of inches over the spine and the shock had just knocked him out for a minute. I saw him one last time six weeks or so later doing just fine but as old as he was I don't think he made it through the winter as we had a pretty hard february/march that year.

It's those painful lessons we learn best.

Agreed. Mine bothered me in a different way afterwards, as hunters we try to make the animals suffering as minimal as possible. After it stood back up, I put two additional shots into him. The second shot didn't phase him, shot 3 dropped him again. When I walked down to where he was, he looked dead...got within 10ft and he picked up its head. It was a you have to be kidding me type of deal. I finished it with my pistol. All three shots landed in the shoulder area in close proximity to each other making for a large area of destroyed meat.

 

[MOA Chaser]

After 110 replies I have decided. I'm switching to Partitions! lightbulb

 

[Broz]

After 110 replies I have decided. I'm switching to Partitions! lightbulb

I had good luck with them, but they would not stand the test of distance. But for the close in stuff they are a good choice I think.

Jeff