Bear defense shotgun.

Loaded for Bear

3" Brenneke Black Magic, 3" Dixie Slugs IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug), Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga.

The Brenneke Black Magic in 3" 12 gauge weighs 602 grs and travels at MV of 1502 FPS with 3014 (ft lbs) of energy to stop a bear at point blank range.

The Dixie Slugs IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) weighs 870 grs. and travels 1200'/" from a 20" barrel. I believe from a 24" barrel you could expect close to 1300FPS. The ft. lbs. of energy is not listed. This slug is similar to old 2 bore black powder elephant rifle rounds. In penetration tests the penetration has been similar to a .416 Rigby from what I have read as the slugs are hard cast non-expanding. Dixie also makes a Tri-Ball load in both 3" and 3 1/2" consisting of three hardened .60 caliber in-line non-expanding balls.

Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga. slug weighs 1 3/8 oz (600 grains) and travels at MV of 1890 FPS with 4759 ft/lbs at the muzzle) The patented IDS design incorporates an impact-discarding Sabot that aids stability in the wind and produces a controlled expansion slug for deeper penetration.

Please note the .458 Winchester Mag. Average Gr: 488 MV - 2158 ME - 5045

For brown bear defense in Alaska, I'm debating buying either 1.) the Ruger Guide Gun in 416 Ruger (shooting 400 gr @ 2400 fps & 5100 ft lbs, or 2.) Remington 870 in 12 gauge (.88 caliber) shooting slugs of somewhere between 600-800 gr.

Let's assume there's time for only 1 shot @ 10 yards, which would you prefer assuming identical shot placement - 1.) a 416 Ruger @ 5,000 ft lbs or 2.) a heavy 12 gauge slug (let's assume the 600 gr because I have the muzzle energy stats for it) in 600 gr @ 1,500 fps @ 3,000 ft lbs ?

The Taylor Knock Out formula is notably flawed for placing far too high of an emphasis on big bore - that's evident in the assessment here:
416 Ruger: Taylor KO index of 57
602 gr Brenneke: Taylor KO index of 113

Clearly there are many other factors for, including bullet expansion vs. hard cast - let's compare apples to apples for this variable.

I'm curious of people's thoughts on the comparison between these two calibers - I change my mind daily. Even if this is academic because either would work great, I still want your opinion on the better of the two because it's fun to discuss!
 
I choose Rem 870, to ensure there's time for more than the single shot at 10yds.

If I was limited to a single shot rifle, make it .458 Win Mag, or some other minimum of 45cal bullet with equal or greater MV as the 458WM.

I know..., I didn't answer your question.
 
I always have the 454, when I carry a long gun, I'll Carry a rifle. Spent years with an 870 as well. Either works. Think about a big black lab running to greet you, which will you have the best chance of making a CNS shot?
Depends also on your activities, how accessible can you keep it.
That being said a Ruger guide gun in either 375 or 416 is on my list. Good excuse to buy one.
As to horse power, Phil Shoemaker killed a charging bear in his camp last year with a 9mm.
It's all about taking out the computer.
 
I always have the 454, when I carry a long gun, I'll Carry a rifle. Spent years with an 870 as well. Either works. Think about a big black lab running to greet you, which will you have the best chance of making a CNS shot?
Depends also on your activities, how accessible can you keep it.
That being said a Ruger guide gun in either 375 or 416 is on my list. Good excuse to buy one.
As to horse power, Phil Shoemaker killed a charging bear in his camp last year with a 9mm.
It's all about taking out the computer.
I want to maximize the odds of killing any bear before it can kill me without having to depend on a single shot brain hit. Multiple shot capability within a short duration of time improves my survivability. If you intend to always target the brain, then anything that can penetrate the brain is good enough.
But adopting that bear defense plan doesn't equate to maximum odds of survival. It increases the bears odds of survival IMO, given the fact there are additional options for stopping bears. Options that allow greater latitude and forgiveness on shooting skills and pinpoint bullet placement when one's life is at stake.
 
If I was limited to a single shot rifle, make it .458 Win Mag, or some other minimum of 45cal bullet with equal or greater MV as the 458WM.

I know..., I didn't answer your question.

thanks for the input though! Trying to limit it to a 416 ruger vs 3" 12 gauge as I have access to a great deal on the 416 Ruger.
 
As to horse power, Phil Shoemaker killed a charging bear in his camp last year with a 9mm.
It's all about taking out the computer.

I'm sure a .22 hitting a bear in the eye could kill it - I'm considering scenario where that sprinting bear is bouncing up and down and it's a chest shot that neither takes out a shoulder nor hits the heart. Guess just wondering which would do more ballistic damage.

I would love to see the 2 competing rounds in a ballistic gel comparison (with a 2x4 in front of the gel)

Edit: I would actually contribute to the cost of a ballistic test if someone has access to a .416 & 600-800 gr slugs and films the comparison =)
 
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As to horse power, Phil Shoemaker killed a charging bear in his camp last year with a 9mm.
It's all about taking out the computer.

I thought Phil's bear wandered through camp, got tired and took a nap next to him. Then he shoved the muzzle down the bear's ear canal to see if his 9mm would travel down the canal.
 
Hits on target are all that matter. Good slugs will penetrate deeply, so will heavy rifle bullets. Regardless what you choose I don't think you want to use a system you're not intimately familiar with.
The hard part is training for such an encounter. I've carried rifles and shotguns. If next summer is anything like the last 20 I'll have one or the other ready while I get myself and clients away from a pushy bear. It's a rare day I don't have to deal with a bear that's too close.
One of the reasons I carry a rifle is that I may not be able to get between my clients and the bear when things go sideways. I'd like the better accuracy to resolve what amounts to a hostage rescue shot.
That being said the two I witnessed were resolved with a shotgun, quite handily.
 
I want to maximize the odds of killing any bear before it can kill me without having to depend on a single shot brain hit. Multiple shot capability within a short duration of time improves my survivability. If you intend to always target the brain, then anything that can penetrate the brain is good enough.
But adopting that bear defense plan doesn't equate to maximum odds of survival. It increases the bears odds of survival IMO, given the fact there are additional options for stopping bears. Options that allow greater latitude and forgiveness on shooting skills and pinpoint bullet placement when one's life is at stake.
I think the point I was trying to make is shutting down the computer is the only guarantee for an instant stop. Failing that plan B must be a means to hammer him hard and deep.
You've obviously done quite a bit of planning/training on the subject, that's outstanding.
When I was training SWAT guys my favorite training mantra was The body can't go where the brain has never been. You've articulated enough experience with bears to understand how things may unfold, what you'll do about it.
When we hire a guide we do quite a bit of training, includes quite a bit of fast shooting on the move, oblique angles, accurate shooting, focusing on taking advantage of your first round disrupting his plan, shooting center mass of the target you get when the sights settle.
If you do brain or spine him with the first round, keep hammering. Violence of Action. You don't want to be standing in the same spot he last saw you. We also train on what to do if the bear gets to one of the clients, we used to have an old blow up doll( long story) we would put under the bear barrel, as if the bear was on top of some one, how would you approach and shoot without hitting the victim, maybe the first shot straight down through the pelvis, something to think about. I also set up a no win kind of scenario, they approach to shoot the bear through the ears but the dolls arm is in the way on the other side, might get hit. She can live w/o her arm. She won't if you don't kill the bear.
Obviously there is no way to dream up every possible scenario but planning on how you'll carry your weapons is easy, but takes some thought. I carry my pistol off center on my chest, get to it with either hand. Bear spray on my belt, our rifles and shotguns slung across our chests. The sling we use can be pulled tight keeping the weapon out of the way, yet tugging the weapon into position releases the sling so you can move freely. The rifle or shotgun never gets left behind, period.
Back to the question slugs or rifle bullets, which one will you be able to use more instinctively, one handed perhaps. Pretty easy to run an 870 one handed. Something to think about.
Playing dead, I keep reading about that technique. There is certainly anecdotal evidence it has worked. Also a bunch of people who were victims and we have no way of knowing if they played dead or not. I've had plenty of time to think about that scenario, as long as I have weapons I choose violence of action.
 
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