Bear defense shotgun.

[alaska]

Browning A-5 Slug Gun
12 Ga with Breneke Magnum 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz Original
With plug removed holds 5
Zero in at 5 yards on the money
This old A5 made in 1963 has been with me on many hunting and fishing trips in Alaska

 

[Pdvdh]

Browning A-5 Slug Gun
12 Ga with Breneke Magnum 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz
With plug removed holds 5
Zero in at 5 yards on the money
This old A5 made in 1963 has been with me on many hunting and fishing trips in Alaska

Have you killed moose or bear with the Brenneke slugs? Effectiveness?

 

[alaska]

Yes, very effective, issued to law enforcement up North for polar bears.

I keep my A5 loaded for home protection here against grizzly with this slug

When I am salmon fishing, or camping or skinning my moose my A5 is close with these slugs.

Bet my life on these slugs

 

[Hand Skills]

I too am curious about your results. I've seen a few cases of slugs getting turned by the resistance of heavy bone.

Considering the low sectional density <.150, low velocity, and low hardness this is not surprising. Compounded by a questionable SG or 'twist', the ballistics support some of the spooky results people see when big bones get in the way big slugs.

Same for buckshot. Steel and copper are harder than lead, but have a much lower density, which translates into lower SD given equal diameter shot.

To me TSS sounds like a great solution to the penetration problem.

While I miss the utility of a 12ga, I've found what I feel is a better fit for my needs.

 

[alaska]

no buckshot For bear save the buckshot for bucks

The new Federal hard Slug that is Copper plated should be excellent also.

You will have no problem busting a bear skull with a slug from a 12 ga.

Only problem is hitting it. We have practice pulling 50gal barrel with a veh simulating a bear charge and trying to hit the head with a pistol. At 15/10/5 yards. Aim for the nose if he is coming straight at you. Very hard to do with a pistol. Shotgun works better. A bear charge happens in a matter of seconds if you see him. A lot are People are not aware of their surroundings and are taken by surprise. Like fishing or skinning a moose. Food in camp is a magnet cooking in sleeping tents is a mistake. They have such great noses.

So we train only use your pistol to get to your shotgun. Stay Alert and Stay Alive.
As for pump and auto I have had both, but my 2 shotguns are Browning Auto 5 and Benelli M4. Both excellent shotguns a lot of police dep are switching to Auto. You can fire them with one hand if needed.

Moose are easy to kill

 

[alaska]

This has been a free lesson your test will be in the field

 

[Pdvdh]

I shot a bull moose with a 1 3/8oz Brenneke 3" 12ga slug from ~130yds in the ribs, broadside. Bull trotted ~60yds, never to get up again.
Know law enforcement that have put down vehicle-struck moose at close range. Also communicated with F&G which puts down problem bears and injured moose. Deadly at close range.
I was crane hunting when I shot the bull moose at long range. Carried the Brenneke slugs in case of moose or bear contact.
Brenneke's slugs are hard cast lead. No deformation. In 12ga they cut a 3/4" plug thru whatever they encounter.
TSS (tungsten) buckshot to the head of charging bear will be better. A pattern to take out the brain instead of a single projectile.

 

[Hand Skills]

This has been a free lesson your test will be in the field

Thanks! Sounds like a costly test to fail. We can all benefit from professional instruction from time to time. When it's free, all the better!

Movers are good, I've found a shotgun to be even more challenging to hit with than a hand gun when it doesn't have a buttstock. This is only magnified when the shooter is in motion.

That's a skill I've found difficult to master. After years of shooting from static positions, getting ones feet in motion is so counter-intuitive it's like playing the drums... requires practice.

I've gotta agree, having a buttstock and one handed operation are both assets. Don't see that mentioned a lot. Good lesson!

 

[alaska]

At 5 and 10 yards you have no pattern with buckshot in my guns it's just cluster, much better to use Slugs, especially if your shooting a bear off of a companion. He might get ****ed if you hit him with a buckshot. No Buckshot for bear. Home protection BB or 4 Buck for 2 legged critters only. I keep one shotgun loaded for bears with slug and the other for 2 legged critters with BB only shot.

Wisdom grasshopper?

 

[Pdvdh]

At 5 and 10 yards you have no pattern with buckshot in my guns it's just cluster, much better to use Slugs, especially if your shooting a bear off of a companion. He might get ****ed if you hit him with a buckshot. No Buckshot for bear. Home protection BB or 4 Buck for 2 legged critters only. I keep one shotgun loaded for bears with slug and the other for 2 legged critters with BB only shot.

Wisdom grasshopper?

Believe me, I've pattern tested my TSS buckshot loads. Without the benefit of the pattern they're no better than a Brenneke slug. At the yardages I'll kill a bear threatening my life and well being, I'll take a 10" - 14" pattern of death over a 3/4" diameter slug any day, any time. I can be off 1/2 to 3/4 the width of the TSS pattern with my point of aim and still kill the threat. You may choose to wait until 5yds. Not me. I'd consider that a first mistake. A bear that's still coming toward me and closing 20yds, is a dead bear. And depending on the perceived aggression/threat, I'll draw a line in the sand out to 25 -30yds. My mindset has changed over the past 40yrs on the distance (point of no return) with brown/grizzly bears. I give myself every benefit of the doubt. They get none. I value my life 1000% more than I value a threatening bear's life. There's plenty more of them. Only one of me.

I've read your thoughts and position on shotguns and slugs. I disagree on the semi-auto also. My brother's been an Alaskan gunsmith for 35yrs. As a general rule, semi-autos are much more prone to failures to feed than a pump action shotgun, based on his repair records. His repair records over 35yrs of repairs captures a lot more experience than your individual experience, and all your buddy's experiences combined. While I appreciate your experience and consequent opinions, they don't change mine. TSS buckshot will be every bit as lethal as Brenneke slugs at the closest of ranges also. 1 3/4oz of TSS buckshot at 5yds with a 3-4" pattern, even on a body shot, will put a bear down as effectively as your 1 1/4oz slug. The reason TSS buckshot is the better option is because of the improved odds of placing a lethal hit into the bear's brain, when my life depends on it. That's what I consider stacking the deck in my favor.

Wisdom is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps you've not had my experiences with bears. Pretty sure you've never shot TSS shot of any size before because you make no mention of it. Brenneke slugs are terrific bear stoppers at close range, so they aren't a bad choice. Now that TSS buckshot is available, Brennekes are no longer the best choice in shotgun ammo for my life or death defense on bears.

 

[Salmonchaser]

What we know for certain is you are much better served by a weapon system you have on your person at all times.
ADFG has conducted many studies regarding DLP (defense of life or property) The most interesting one evaluated the effectiveness of long guns, hand guns and pepper spray in non-hunting circumstances.
Handguns beat long guns in their evaluation simply because once the bear made contact the long gun either could not be brought on target or had been knocked out of the victims hands. Pepper spray was also effective but I don't recall if it fell just above or below handguns.
The study did not consider incidents where the bear did not make contact.
I carried an 870 for a number of years but prefer my Marlin guide gun. I always carry the 454 and spray.
Regardless ADFG showing buckshot failing to penetrate a bears skull I've seen it work twice. First time dad and I were duck hunting outside Fairbanks. We were sneaking up on some ducks and the bear just popped up over a dead fall, 10 to 15 feet away, not charging but coming at us. Dad hit him right above the nose with a load of sixes, tore the bears face off. The bear rolled back over the dead fall, rolling around making a terrible noise. Dad dropped the shotgun, spun his 06 off his back and hammered the bear again.
Second time, just a few months later we heard the bear outside the tent. Bear tears in through the door. Dad hits him in the face with 00 buck, as the bear rolls back dad follows pounding slugs into him.
The principle is to turn the bear, disable as much as you can and finish him.
These incidents occurred in 1960 and 61. I was 6 or 7.
Don't think it was isolated success as that's what everyone did then.
Over the last 20 years I've guided out in Bristol Bay. I've had very few days I didn't see a Grizz. My " best day" outside Katmai NP we had 22 Grizz within 50 yards. I've never had to shoot one, I've pepper sprayed three in that time. It works. I was ready to shoot but the spray worked instantly when I used it.
I really don't think it matters much, going back to the argument pump vs auto, getting hits on target are what count.
All our rifles and shotguns have tactical slings. The guides carry them their chest, not over their shoulder. Embarrassment teaches almost as well as pain. I've suffered the embarrassment of propping my shot gun on the driftwood and wadding out to fish only to have a bear show up. I always carry at least two systems, heavy handgun and spray. I can access each with either hand. In my opinion heavy hardcast bullets that will break bone and penetrate deeply are a good bet in handguns.

 

[Pdvdh]

I read Alaska Dept. Fish and Game literature on bear protection means and methods, but by and large, they're no more expert in this field of study than experienced hunters. They're typically biologists. Not big game guides.

Almost any field shell from a 12ga shotgun will stop a bear at 5yds with a shot to their skull. Even birdshot. F&G's study with #00 buckshot was conducted at greater yardage, where the penetration of individual pellets could be examined. They found individual pellet penetration to be lacking against brown bear skulls. If they had tested a load of #00 buckshot at only 5yds, they would have reported their brown bear skulls were destroyed.

Another consideration on the effectiveness of bear spray, which I believe is not openly discussed, is its effectiveness on bears intent on fighting to the death, versus ***** bears that are testing their opponents the same as kids do on the playground. When I read instances of bear spray being dispensed, yet the person/people involved are still mauled and killed after dispensing their bear spray, I reach the conclusion all bears are not created equal, and bears come with differing intent and commitment, under different circumstances. By and large, F&G departments, and especially USF&WS and National Parks staff would prefer that people not harm "their" bears. Many individuals working for such Government agencies are bunny huggers, and sympathetically to the wildlife, recommend non-lethal bear defense over firearms, IMO. Same with National Parks fighting firearm possession in our parks. And even employees that may personally feel differently bow and defer to the company line when discussing the subject 'on the record'. They know what's good or bad for their personal careers. Furthermore, no published papers leave the printing presses from these agencies without internal review and the blessing of the top brass. So what's published has been filtered to align with the preference of top level administrators in agencies that hug trees whenever possible.

The true test of bear spray effectiveness on bears that are playing for keeps can only be completed in real life instances of fight to the death attacks. And we've now had examples where the bear spray has failed to deter, and victims are killed after spray is dispensed. The only bear that's a safe bear is a dead bear. And bear spray is designed to keep them alive.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I read Alaska Dept. Fish and Game literature on bear protection means and methods, but by and large, they're no more expert in this field of study than experienced hunters. They're typically biologists. Not big game guides.

Almost any field shell from a 12ga shotgun will stop a bear at 5yds with a shot to their skull. Even birdshot. F&G's study with #00 buckshot was conducted at greater yardage, where the penetration of individual pellets could be examined. They found individual pellet penetration to be lacking against brown bear skulls. If they had tested a load of #00 buckshot at only 5yds, they would have reported their brown bear skulls were destroyed.

Another consideration on the effectiveness of bear spray, which I believe is not openly discussed, is its effectiveness on bears intent on fighting to the death, versus ----- bears that are testing their opponents the same as kids do on the playground. When I read instances of bear spray being dispensed, yet the person/people involved are still mauled and killed after dispensing their bear spray, I reach the conclusion all bears are not created equal, and bears come with differing intent and commitment, under different circumstances. By and large, F&G departments, and especially USF&WS and National Parks staff would prefer that people not harm "their" bears. Many individuals working for such Government agencies are bunny huggers, and sympathetically to the wildlife, recommend non-lethal bear defense over firearms, IMO. Same with National Parks fighting firearm possession in our parks. And even employees that may personally feel differently bow and defer to the company line when discussing the subject 'on the record'. They know what's good or bad for their personal careers. Furthermore, no published papers leave the printing presses from these agencies without internal review and the blessing of the top brass. So what's published has been filtered to align with the preference of top level administrators in agencies that hug trees whenever possible.

The true test of bear spray effectiveness on bears that are playing for keeps can only be completed in real life instances of fight to the death attacks. And we've now had examples where the bear spray has failed to deter, and victims are killed after spray is dispensed. The only bear that's a safe bear is a dead bear. And bear spray is designed to keep them alive.

I think largely we are in agreement. I've seen the buckshot work at five feet on a bear that was playing for keeps. The three bears I've sprayed were not charging, were all sub adult males and appeared to be healthy. They were being pushy, curious and getting too close. In each case I had a lethal force option available and in my hand and had done everything reasonable to avoid the situation. Certainly don't think spray is an absolute, far from it, I like to have as many options as I can, as noted I'm always armed.
I work a lot in Katmai National Park. The parkies hang their hat on their safety record. In my opinion, sooner then later they are going to get someone killed. They are idiots.
I have documented over 500 close encounters with Grizz, inside fifty yards, What we did what the bear did, what appeared to work to let's not do that again. Throwing rocks for example. What I know for certain even with all that data is that I don't know much and you never know with bears.
Do I think a shotgun is viable defensive weapon. Yep seen it work twice. Not a whole lot of people can say that.

 

[Paparock]

Loaded for Bear

3" Brenneke Black Magic, 3" Dixie Slugs IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug), Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga.

The Brenneke Black Magic in 3" 12 gauge weighs 602 grs and travels at MV of 1502 FPS with 3014 (ft lbs) of energy to stop a bear at point blank range.

The Dixie Slugs IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) weighs 870 grs. and travels 1200'/" from a 20" barrel. I believe from a 24" barrel you could expect close to 1300FPS. The ft. lbs. of energy is not listed. This slug is similar to old 2 bore black powder elephant rifle rounds. In penetration tests the penetration has been similar to a .416 Rigby from what I have read as the slugs are hard cast non-expanding. Dixie also makes a Tri-Ball load in both 3" and 3 1/2" consisting of three hardened .60 caliber in-line non-expanding balls.

Lightfield Commander IDS Plus 3″ 12 ga. slug weighs 1 3/8 oz (600 grains) and travels at MV of 1890 FPS with 4759 ft/lbs at the muzzle) The patented IDS design incorporates an impact-discarding Sabot that aids stability in the wind and produces a controlled expansion slug for deeper penetration.

Please note the .458 Winchester Mag. Average Gr: 488 MV - 2158 ME - 5045