Are wolves really the problem

[RTK]

One question longrangehntr, Are you a hunter and/or have been an elk hunter for a number of years where these canadian wolves were introduced???

 

[bigngreen]

@rooster740, Would the gut piles not attrack the coyotes and wolfs, bears and any other carivor scavengers?
again shooting elk with a shotgun,harrasing them. with your actions as well as other ranchers i don't see how the elk are there. can you not carry an air compressor on an atv or truck? not sure where you are shooting into the ground that bullets take off from the ground and into the surrounding elk population. so not only do you shoot elk because you think that is the only way to tell them to stay away from your hay you leave gut piles which attrack other scavengers. I hunted on a ranchers land in new mexico who has his cattle in one of the top elk draw areas. he doesn't go around shooting elk. you have to decide whether you want the elk there or you don't want the elk there. you don't like them eating your hay but you said the elk you hate eating your hay fills your freezer.


@bigngreen
same game and fish that thought it was a great idea to reintroduce wolves. If you call what you say is propaganda then I will start listening to someone else. i see what you and other individuals are saying on here and it seems to be one giant contradiction. Like every other animal you will seek out food so they will always come back. Even better shooting elk with game and fish and letting them go to waste. that is a great idea since the elk are not declining in population at all.
the reason the herd is there is because of the cattle which have hay, decoy on the far end of your property. so ranchers are the reason the elk are doing well however they are doing too well and therefore have to shoot a bunch of elk some of which are just left to waste.

How do you tell an adult dry cow elk from a calf producing elk? I doubt this is something that is used more than it is in theory.
so the elk herd is knocked down by 25% yet the next year it doubles in size and they are doing better than what the area will sustain yet the problem, the only problem is the wolf.
Im watching that video right after i send this response.

You absolutely wrong about FWP wanting wolves, I worked for a biologist in Idaho when the wolves were introduced and there were no warm feeling about the wolves at all and there was zero local support, that is why they had to be introduced into a Federal Park, no local agencies thought they belonged and wanted nothing to do with them but now they have been dropped in their laps so in order to keep the Fed dollars coming they have to jump through hoops and that is what you'll see up on the front of FWP web sites, hang out with the local FWP guys who have to work with them daily and you'll get a different feel.

You simply do not have the capacity to understand what guys like Rooster are trying to tell you, ranching is a long string of contradictions in an effort to do the best you can to make a living on the land. I've spent three months, every night all night calving heifers for years, been mashed into fences and dirt to try to get a cow in to pull the calf, sat in a pile of sage brush all night to catch a bear killing cows, yet I'll send them out for slaughter and more than likely the hand raised bottle calves I would kill for beef.

I've shot elk to push them of fields but I also will leave a gate open in the corner or pull up a wire so the calves can get through the fence, I would check the fence every morning just to pull elk calves out and put some antiseptic on any spots on their legs. I'd wait till the calves got through the fence safely then shoot a cow to try to keep them back, it's all contradictions in an effort to do the best for all the animal that are on the ranch.

I've kept water troughs full of water in a drought and all that was there were elk and deer, but I'll also shoot them to make sure I have hay, I don't know of any rancher who would shoot elk to protect hay if they had enough for the cows, they elk graze of a lot of ground after haying and no one get bent. Some years they don't hit the hay so no problem, some years they do and it's taken care of as easily as possible.

I did not say that we killed 25% of a herd and had it double, your trying to put words into my mouth! I've seen the herd increase meaning a small bump up not doubling, our elk are doing well in my area, in Roosters not so much but in my area the wolves have been controlled but the area is easier to do that because of the terrain and most of the population will whack a wolf on sight. When I was growing up there were native wolves here and I only once remember there being an issues with one but no one would actively hunt down wolves because they didn't cause problems.
And picking out a dry cow is not an issue if you've spent any real time watching elk, SHE'S THE ONE WITHOUT A CALF plus if you look at them and watch them you'll see differences in how they look because they have not been feeding a calf all summer. It's not 100% cause some times you just have to pull up and brown is down but if I have time to look them over there is no reason to shoot a cow with a calf.

Yes the wolf is the issue because it is the only variable that has changed, ranchers have been protecting hay when needed, ran cows around elk and elk have always been hunted and we've had great elk herds and at times a surplus for generations but you change one variable like introducing a top of the line predator and breeding machine and you completely change the game, I really don't understand why you can not put that together in you mind!!!

 

[Engineering101]

I saw a couple of grey wolves in a meadow a few Springs ago. They looked at me and I was pretty sure I knew what they were thinking, "Can I eat that?" They decided no and wandered off. I ran across a grizzly lumbering along an open hillside a few months later. Wow how cool was that – wolves and grizzly here in Washington? The answer: Not cool at all. I was (and still am) totally ****ed at the idiots responsible.

There is no benefit to having wolves in our wilds (or grizzly for that matter). I buy licenses, tags and sporting goods. I provide an economic benefit – wolves do not. I provide for controlled harvest of game animals. Wolves don't stop killing after they fill their tag. They are in fact an economic drain. If you can add and subtract, this is clear. I want every last one of the wolves gone and I will be paying attention to this issue at every election.

 

[rooster740]

@rooster740, Would the gut piles not attrack the coyotes and wolfs, bears and any other carivor scavengers?
again shooting elk with a shotgun,harrasing them. with your actions as well as other ranchers i don't see how the elk are there. can you not carry an air compressor on an atv or truck? not sure where you are shooting into the ground that bullets take off from the ground and into the surrounding elk population. so not only do you shoot elk because you think that is the only way to tell them to stay away from your hay you leave gut piles which attrack other scavengers. I hunted on a ranchers land in new mexico who has his cattle in one of the top elk draw areas. he doesn't go around shooting elk. you have to decide whether you want the elk there or you don't want the elk there. you don't like them eating your hay but you said the elk you hate eating your hay

In my humble opinion you are a person who has no idea what you are talking about! I doubt that you are a hunter and you have no clue about elk!
It seams like every other time I post something on this forum lately I get some person who has no clue what they are talking about pounding away on a keyboard making senseless banter!
Why would I carry an air compressor in a truck to blow an airhorn? Does a truck horn not ring the correct note for you?
You stated.
"not sure where you are shooting into the ground that bullets take off from the ground and into the surrounding elk population." You Mr longrangehuntr are the one who mentioned shooting into the ground! I was telling you why that is a bad idea! I guess I just assumed that you meant to do this while the elk were present.

You stated "Would the gut piles not attrack the coyotes and wolfs, bears and any other carivor scavengers?"
Do you seriously think that bears are out in January, Feburary, and March, searching stack yards for a treat? Because surely you are not thinking that elk are going to tear down a stack yard fence to get baled hay when there is green alfalfa to eat? And you must surely know that a "wolfs" is not stupid enough to mess with a gut pile with that much sent around it!
You stated
"you have to decide whether you want the elk there or you don't want the elk there. you don't like them eating your hay but you said the elk you hate eating your hay"

What the hell does this statement mean? How old are you?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

You guys would have better luck trying to reason with a fence post. The gentleman obviously knows next to nothing about elk, wolves and other things.

 

[rooster740]

You guys would have better luck trying to reason with a fence post. The gentleman obviously knows next to nothing about elk, wolves and other things.

Take it back! The fence post deserves more credit then that! I was thinking you meant to say "wolfs" poo!

 

[longrangehuntr]

One question longrangehntr, Are you a hunter and/or have been an elk hunter for a number of years where these canadian wolves were introduced???

I am a hunter and I have been hunting long enough that ranchers shooting elk because they are eating hay but then say because of the ranchers the elk are doing great so they can shoot however many elk they want rubs me the wrong way. I also have a problem with shooting game animals and letting it go to waste because that is what someone wants to do. they released the wolves on fed land, the local governments could take action against any infringements once the wolves moved off the fed land.

more discussion points:

Defenders of Wildlife instituted a program in Montana and Idaho that paid $5,000 to ranchers to protect wolf dens on the ranchers' land.

Other conservation groups offer compensation to ranchers for livestock and pet deaths.2 However, expenses add up, especially when government officials are needed to police wolf-prone areas and determine the cause of livestock deaths. Which raises the hypothetical point: how much money is needed to alleviate the stress on a rural family when their pet dog is killed by a gray wolf? How far can money go?

Other measures taken by Federal Government include fencing reintroduction areas and the killing of wolves that step out of bounds of their control area.
The last point raises an important issue; is it legal to kill or capture an endangered species? Hardcore advocacy groups and pro-wolf organizations have taken the matter to court, effectively stalling gray wolf reintroduction efforts. For example:
The law is ambiguous about the capture or kill of endangered wolves.

Lawsuits in Wyoming and the Southwest by environmentalists and the Farm Bureau argue that, in active Federal Government wolf reintroduction programs in Idaho and Montana, the "nonessential, experimental wolf populations" being relocated are not protected under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) like they should be (the gray wolf is endangered in all states).
Therefore this relocation constitutes a taking (killing, capture, or harming) by the Federal Government.

In active reintroduction programs in Montana and Idaho, the federal government has granted special permits to ranchers that enable the ranchers to kill wolves that attack livestock, easing up restrictions placed on the wolf under the ESA.

A federal judge recently ruled a reintroduction out west as illegal and ordered the killing of wolves to stop.1 Ironically, pro-wolf environmental groups hail this as a victory because wolves are not being killed anymore. Yet reintroduction plans are stalled due to the above legislation, and I believe this is a major step backwards for wolf reintroductions.

Conservationists are debunking wolf myths and fears. On the other hand, some proponents of wolf reintroduction are taking steps to ensure reintroduced wolves do stand a chance. Groups like the Defenders of Wildlife are mobilizing and spreading unbiased information about the wolf, debunking many public myths about the gray wolf. Their hope is for improved education, and for lawsuits and litigation to be avoided in the future.

Unfortunately for many pro wolf groups, this is not an ideal world where gray wolves could return to the land they inhabited hundreds of years ago; and find it uninhabited. One conservation biologist argues that with reintroductions of wolves, the process itself needs to be controlled from people at the local level.
Some biologists suggest wolf protection begins at the community level.

L.D. Mech says there is "no recovery without control." He proposes control at the local level, which is crucial to the success of an active reintroduction plan in Maine and other states.

Compensation measures and lethal control devices must be instituted at the local level by townships and state or county environmental organizations.

Initiatives that incorporate the studying, protecting, and holding by local native tribes (who own some of the land where wolves are reintroduced) in Idaho have proven that local efforts can work.

 

[longrangehuntr]

that is a humble opinion to say the least. air horns are or can be a lot louder than a truck horn. you asked how you would use an air horn and i gave you the answer.
I asked why you could not shoot into the ground and you said because the bullet would end up wounding an animal and then that animal would wonder off onto land you could not go.

bears were only one of the animals i stated would be attracked by gut piles. the problem animal that everyone is talking about are wolves and coyotes which would be wondering around in jan, feb and march.

haha, how old am I, thats awesome. does this mean i can say " i know you are but what am I"

In just about every post, ranchers are on here telling me that elk are doing awesome because of them and would not be if it were not for the hay and water. essentially bragging that the elk are the product of their hard work. then the same ranchers are complaining about those elk and that they are a nuisance to that rancher.

bigngreen made the most sense in his post about how ranching is a long string of contradictions.

If you want to shoot elk and let them lay or harvest them, does not make a difference. if the people had a problem with the wolves, i mean really had a problem something could have been done on property next to the federal land. I have seen enough posts to see that ranchers live by the s,s,s philosophy.

if you want to shoot bear, coyotes, wolves, grizzlies, dont care. only one person on here posted a link to proof, a documentary about the introduction of the wolf and the decimation of the elk population. you get angry when i don't believe what you tell me. if you think eveyone should believe what you tell them you should go be a politician.

fence post and "wolfs poo" you guys are hilarious and from the sound of it eveyone here is a wildlife biologist.

 

[JackinSD]

Yep that fence post should be feeling really insulted.

 

[longrangehuntr]

no wonder the wolves are "killing all the elk" everyone that knows anything is on this forum instead of out in the woods killing the wolf. to be compared to a fence post, how ever am i going to sleep at night.

 

[bigngreen]

No there is not bragging what there is are guys telling you the elk herd would not be no where near what it is without ranches, there would be no water improvements so the herds would be much more localized and smaller, there would be no range land improvements, no protection when needed but with that can come some problems at times. You seem to have gotten it in your mind that ranchers are roving the hills shooting elk at will which is just not the case, they are more than happy to let them do their thing 99% of the time and the fact is the elk on private ground is making better business for them these days.
If your bummed about what the elk herd is now you can not comprehend what it would be without the improvements and protection ranchers bring the the elk herd, especially now!!!

The compensation program is a raging joke, I don't think I know of anyone who has actually seen any money that would remotely come close to what the losses were. A Fed has to almost watch the wolf kill your animals to have it ruled a wolf kill.

My uncle is a card carrying member of PETA, a liberals liberal in every way, he loved the wolves, the whole nine yards. The last time he returned from Yellowstone he was absolutely crushed and encouraged me in my wolf hunting, he said if they had been told the truth there never would have been any support for it in their circles. This floored me!!!!

Here's another link, if your really interested in finding all the info from BOTH sides there is a lot of info and links to data. Home

 

[longrangehuntr]

I am interested in hearing and learning everything about this issue. people should not accept everything they are told and need to do their own research. no sure what people thought would happen with a predator species that is uncontrolled. showing me facts is what i started this thread for in the first place not to talk about fence posts.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Well, I smell a rat. Trying to convince the original poster (whoever they really are) that the wolves are the ones killing the elk (and they are) is like trying to convince a liberal to be a conservative. Man, we are all wasting time that you'll never get back.
I think that the best thing we all can do is go kill a wolf and post the photos here.
Yeah, that's a good idea!!! Photos be a coming.....................gun)

Randy

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well, I smell a rat. Trying to convince the original poster (whoever they really are) that the wolves are the ones killing the elk (and they are) is like trying to convince a liberal to be a conservative. Man, we are all wasting time that you'll never get back.
I think that the best thing we all can do is go kill a wolf and post the photos here.
Yeah, that's a good idea!!! Photos be a coming.....................gun)

Randy

I do too... the way this whole thread has gone down is very fishy. "Herding" elk onto reservations... are you kidding???? Anyone who has any basic knowldge of the animals understands that elk will not be herded. Ain't gonna happen. Too many other statements that show a lot of ignorance on the subject and seemingly willful ignorance at that.

Looking forward to the photos!