6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC Enough/Effective for Elk?

[buzby]

Bullet design has a greater effect than bullet weight.
A 6.5 Berger rapidly coming apart inside an animal at X amount of energy is going to do more damage than a .338 fmj of double the weight, and double the energy.

If you want an exit. And the bullet taking half its energy with it out the other side of the animal, yeah, you'll need more energy to reach the same end.

A bullet can perform quite well, with a pretty small amount of energy if designed to do so. To the point that energy isn't a common measurement to determine lethality anymore.

 

[bobinpa]

A bullet with a larger diameter, by hundredths of an inch, is not going to make up for a bad shot.

There are 6mm bullets that make a larger permanent wound cavity than some .338 bullets. I just don't think blanket statement of one diameter being better than another across the board is accurate.

I do think it's quite plausible that someone would have more practice rounds behind their gun shooting 6.5cm than a .338 whatever. That would make a greater difference than 78 hundredths of an inch.

It has almost nothing to do with bullet diameter and almost everything to do with energy and hydrostatic shock. For example, according to any common ballistic calculator:
A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 1268 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 PRC)
A .338 dia. 250 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 2200 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (338 RUM)

A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has 911 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 Creedmoor)

The difference in downrange energy is so great that you have to add another gun, like a 6.5 Creedmoor for example, to get to the same amount of energy. 6.5 PRC + 6.5 Creedmoor = 338 RUM

Furthermore with a mere 5 mph crosswind, based on the data above:
The 6.5 PRC gets blown 9"
The 338 RUM gets blown 9"
The Creedmoor gets blown 12"

This is enough to turn a heart shot into a lung shot and a lung shot into a liver or gut shot.

I would not want to be the guy that had to make a 500 yard cross canyon shot and get blown off 9" - 12" by an undetectable 5 mph thermal draft, if I was shooting a Creedmoor. If I was the victim of something unfortunate like that, I would want to be shooting the bigger cartridge with more downrange energy and likely a bigger exit wound for more blood loss and a better blood trail.

 

[buzby]

It has almost nothing to do with bullet diameter and almost everything to do with energy and hydrostatic shock. For example, according to any common ballistic calculator:
A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 1268 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 PRC)
A .338 dia. 250 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 2200 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (338 RUM)

A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has 911 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 Creedmoor)

The difference in downrange energy is so great that you have to add another gun, like a 6.5 Creedmoor for example, to get to the same amount of energy. 6.5 PRC + 6.5 Creedmoor = 338 RUM

Furthermore with a mere 5 mph crosswind, based on the data above:
The 6.5 PRC gets blown 9"
The 338 RUM gets blown 9"
The Creedmoor gets blown 12"

This is enough to turn a heart shot into a lung shot and a lung shot into a liver or gut shot.

I would not want to be the guy that had to make a 500 yard cross canyon shot and get blown off 9" - 12" by an undetectable 5 mph thermal draft, if I was shooting a Creedmoor. If I was the victim of something unfortunate like that, I would want to be shooting the bigger cartridge with more downrange energy and likely a bigger exit wound for more blood loss and a better blood trail.

Swap out that 6.5 partition with a Berger, eldm, or TMK, and make a larger permanent wound cavity than the 338 partition. More damage, with less energy. Watch the impact due to less recoil.

You are correct about wind calls being of the utmost importance.
My calc has a 147eldm, 5mph full value wind at 5" correction at 500yds. Not bad.

 

[whirlwindjml]

anywhere on an animal with a larger, heavier projectile is going to hit with more energy than a hit anywhere with a smaller, lighter projectile.

I was the victim of something unfortunate like that, I would want to be shooting the bigger cartridge with more downrange energy and likely a bigger exit wound for more blood loss and a better blood trail.

Energy put into no man's land doesn't kill. Sure if you get a big enough bullet that throws shrapnel everywhere then of course that would up the ante for a kill. Throwing hydrostatic shock through a non-vital organ is in no way a guarantee or an improvement. People shooting bigger bullets lose animals if they don't hit them right. period. People shooting creedmoors lose animals if they don't hit them right.

Getting a poor hit with more energy and a big hole and no man land also does not give you a better blood trail. Only the organs that bleed are going to produce enough blood to help in that.

Energy is only a contributing factor to a kill. Blood loss and tissue damage to an organ is what kills. Potential suffocation from blood also kills.

Shock to the nervous system may or may not kill. But even in Hunter's education the focus is on putting a shot into the vitals for tissue damage because that's what kills.

You can look at energy numbers on a table all day long but that does not mean that that energy all gets soaked up into the animal unless the bullet stops in the animal. More energy into a non-vital organ will probably just make it run further with adrenaline.

Bad hit is a bad hit. Energy will not fix that.

 

[southpa]

I swear some guys will argue with a fence post as long as the fence post keeps telling them they're not right.

Apples to apples you will not win the debate that a smaller caliber/bullet will not create more energy and transfer more energy upon impact. It's not debatable. Bullet design, POI, blah blah blah. All things equal your 6.5 WILL NOT hit harder than a 200+ grain 30 cal bullet.

Please for the sake of your own humility stop arguing POI. It's not the point that's being made. Probly this, and probly that and if it doesn't stop in the animal... then energy isnt important. Thats all a different debate point than the one thats being made. Bigger bullet more energy regardless of all the other semantics mumbo jumbo.

 

[buzby]

"Hit harder" isn't a measurement of bullet performance.
Neither is energy.

This discussion is about 6.5mm bullets efficiently killing elk. With the right bullets, absolutely they are "enough"

Feel free to argue with a fence post that they are not.

 

[whirlwindjml]

I swear some guys will argue with a fence post as long as the fence post keeps telling them they're not right.

Apples to apples you will not win the debate that a smaller caliber/bullet will not create more energy and transfer more energy upon impact. It's not debatable. Bullet design, POI, blah blah blah. All things equal your 6.5 WILL NOT hit harder than a 200+ grain 30 cal bullet.

Please for the sake of your own humility stop arguing POI. It's not the point that's being made. Probly this, and probly that and if it doesn't stop in the animal... then energy isnt important. Thats all a different debate point than the one thats being made. Bigger bullet more energy regardless of all the other semantics mumbo jumbo.

Hey it's discussion board. If you think energies the big important factor in killing then that's fine...

If you reread what you wrote it sounds like you think it will make up for a bad hit. I just personally never seen anybody have a good time after a bad hit with anything.

 

[southpa]

It has almost nothing to do with bullet diameter and almost everything to do with energy and hydrostatic shock. For example, according to any common ballistic calculator:
A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 1268 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 PRC)
A .338 dia. 250 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 2200 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (338 RUM)

A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has 911 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 Creedmoor)

The difference in downrange energy is so great that you have to add another gun, like a 6.5 Creedmoor for example, to get to the same amount of energy. 6.5 PRC + 6.5 Creedmoor = 338 RUM

Furthermore with a mere 5 mph crosswind, based on the data above:
The 6.5 PRC gets blown 9"
The 338 RUM gets blown 9"
The Creedmoor gets blown 12"

This is enough to turn a heart shot into a lung shot and a lung shot into a liver or gut shot.

I would not want to be the guy that had to make a 500 yard cross canyon shot and get blown off 9" - 12" by an undetectable 5 mph thermal draft, if I was shooting a Creedmoor. If I was the victim of something unfortunate like that, I would want to be shooting the bigger cartridge with more downrange energy and likely a bigger exit wound for more blood loss and a better blood trail.

@bobinpa literally explained it to a T.
Refer to the post above to continue arguing with a fence post hahah. This point is not arguable although people will at their own comical demise.

My apologies to the OP for the digression but I feel it has migrated to a relevant topic related to the question. Energy is important. I dont see why try to act like it's not. Especially with regards to elk.

 

[whirlwindjml]

So how much energy are we hitting an elk with in the muzzleload season?

 

[buzby]

Some

So how much energy are we hitting an elk with in the muzzleload season?

or archery?

 

[Kimber7man]

I'm just searching for the theoretical hunter who uses a 140 partition in a 6.5 out west...

 

[southpa]

Hey it's discussion board. If you think energies the big important factor in killing then that's fine...

If you reread what you wrote it sounds like you think it will make up for a bad hit. I just personally never seen anybody have a good time after a bad hit with anything.

I agree whirl and I like the discussion. I never said energy makes up for a bad hit. This is where is think the debate is missing a variable. That is not the point I think any of us has made and I think I've clearly outlined that. We are simply pointing out that the energy created by a 6.5cm will not equal the energy created my a larger/heavier projectile (same bullet design and similar velocity). Nothing makes up for a bad hit but at the end of the day we try and stack the deck in our favor. In that idea, why would we not look at energy?

 

[340 in Va]

It has almost nothing to do with bullet diameter and almost everything to do with energy and hydrostatic shock. For example, according to any common ballistic calculator:
A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 1268 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 PRC)
A .338 dia. 250 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS has 2200 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (338 RUM)

A .264 dia. 140 grain Nosler Partition with a realistic muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has 911 Ft Lbs of energy at 500 yards (6.5 Creedmoor)

The difference in downrange energy is so great that you have to add another gun, like a 6.5 Creedmoor for example, to get to the same amount of energy. 6.5 PRC + 6.5 Creedmoor = 338 RUM

Furthermore with a mere 5 mph crosswind, based on the data above:
The 6.5 PRC gets blown 9"
The 338 RUM gets blown 9"
The Creedmoor gets blown 12"

This is enough to turn a heart shot into a lung shot and a lung shot into a liver or gut shot.

I would not want to be the guy that had to make a 500 yard cross canyon shot and get blown off 9" - 12" by an undetectable 5 mph thermal draft, if I was shooting a Creedmoor. If I was the victim of something unfortunate like that, I would want to be shooting the bigger cartridge with more downrange energy and likely a bigger exit wound for more blood loss and a better blood trail.

Like your post, the real question would you carry the 6.5 Creedmoor in brown bear country? I have 6.5 CM, 6.5 RPM and 340 bee, and bet you can guess the one I'll carry.

 

[whirlwindjml]

Like your post, the real question would you carry the 6.5 Creedmoor in brown bear country? I have 6.5 CM, 6.5 RPM and 340 bee, and bet you can guess the one I'll carry.

I'm not sure how far a 6.5 would poke into a grizzly bear and I don't think I really would like to find out. But I do know I get a pass through at 500 yards on an elk