6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC Enough/Effective for Elk?

[MTNRaine]

I believe the there is enough evidence out there pointing to the fact that accuracy and bullet choice far exceed cartridge size. That being said I still believe going with as big of cartridge you are comfortable shooting is the best. Guns are like snowmobiles and race cars, to some degree there's no replacement for displacement but if the driver/rider/shooter sucks there's no amount of horsepower that can compensate for precision.

Due to some primary hunting rifle issues. I ran my backup rifle in a 6.5 SAUM for a couple of seasons.
I'll probably catch some grief for this, but to me bullet choice is everything and personally speaking. I'm probably done with Bergers.
I killed two elk and a whitetail doe. Deer at 85 yards both elk at 350-375 yards. I was pushing a 140 VLD-H at 2900 fps. Here's my thoughts.
I believe the 6.5 SAUM is adequate, but I am not a fan of the 140 Bergers. They scare the s*&t out of me.
The deer and one cow were lung shots, they ran 55(elk) and 114(doe) yards before keeling over. The other cow was the classic Berger shoulder shot she anchored in her tracks. Instant lights out.
Fast forward to this year I got my 28 Nosler back and it's running 195gr Berger EOL at 3050 fps.
Cow elk broadside at 311 yards. 1st shot to the lungs and she wobbled and swayed and kept walking. Let her go about 30 yards and got nervous, So 2nd shot I put on her shoulder blade. Instant lights out. The take away? All the animals died but the animals shot the way the bullet was intended to be used worked faster. Use/Shoot the bullet for its optimal performance.

After killing 12 elk in the years prior with 300WM/300WSM pushing 190 SMK's 2900-3075 fps and never having a cow or bull go more than 5-10 steps, to me its all about bullet choice. I had flawless performance for how like to kill critters from 80-675 yards with those Matchkings. If you want to use a specific bullet, understand its intended or preferred use/performance. I don't like the Berger shoulder shot, but that was how they were designed to perform. My experiences with them left me underwhelmed. There are people here who with say they'd never use Matchkings for hunting. There are people who swear by Berger. There are people who love mono's. Moral of the story?.... Good luck choosing

With the boat you're in I'd think less about the gun and more about the bullet. I'd personally run the 6.5 PRC(you already own it), Unless of course you want to build a new gun! Match it with a good bonded bullet for starters if you're a heart/lungs guy, and want simplicity. If you like the Berger way, they do work great for their designed purpose. If you like monos choose a reputable one that has a lot of data on it. Match bullets? Don't be scared of trying them, but due diligence because some have more killing data than others and some don't work well, but others work phenomenal. Have fun hunting for elk! it's addicting, they are such incredible animals.
Calli

 

[bobinpa]

I truly don't understand threads like this.... Of course you can kill an elk with a 6.5 Creedmoor. You can also use a 6.5 PRC, SAUM 6.5-284, 6.5(you fill in the blank). You can also kill them with a 260, 243, 270 308 etc etc. You can kill them with a bow and arrow too, so anything more powerful than a bow and arrow should do the trick. It ALL depends on shot placement!!! Anyone with enough brains to be able to save enough money to go on an elk hunt should be able to figure this out on their own. The biggest question is why??? Why try to kill an animal with the smallest possible cartridge? Why would anyone want to work their *** off to save the money to go on an elk hunt, hunt their butt off to find an elk and then hope everything is perfect so they can use the smallest cartridge possible?

IT IS ALMOST NEVER PERFECT WHEN IT'S TIME TO TAKE THE SHOT. You're heart rate is up, your adrenaline is pumping, maybe it's a further shot than you hoped for, maybe you can't get as steady as you want, maybe there is a wind on the other side of the canyon that you don't detect and your bullet gets blown off 6" - 8". It's not like when you are shooting with your buddies on a calm sunny day from a bench...

These threads are like the old TV show name that tune. One guys says he can kill elk with a 308, next guy says it can be done with a 270, next guys says his awesome 6.5 CREED is all you need and the next guy will come along and claim he knows someone that has killed hundreds of elk with his trusty 243.

Why not just go back to the basics of ethical hunting, show the animal the respect it deserves and take the biggest baddest cartridge that you shoot well and be done with it? Why not take the rifle that will have a better chance at killing an elk when everything isn't perfect?

 

[Rodbolt]

bobinpa, yes but common sense isn't so common….. 28 gauge shot gun for geese the next big thing. Just need a steel shot or two the right place!

 

[whirlwindjml]

Because not everybody subscribes to the biggest baddest cartridge being the best way to do it. Several people have already mentioned how the elk seem to soak up their shots from the big guns even when they do it all right...

So that tells you something right there.... Hydrostatic shock wakes up the central nervous system. Some animals die instantly and some of them run. The biggest fastest bullet is no guarantee whatsoever. It doesn't even make it more ethical. in fact energy leaves with the bullet if it does a pass through.

The hunting bullet manufacturers show a picture usually of their bullets expansion at certain velocities. If a person simply matches the expansion velocity with the appropriate range that will it happen at and you can stick it in the boiler room then you'll probably won't have any problems like the broadhead guys. If a 6.5 makes a silver dollar size hole through the organs you're good to go.

If I made a bad hit with the bow I wouldn't go get a faster arrow and a bigger broadhead and think that was going to fix my problem.

That being said I still am fond of my 338 Lapua and my 300 rum for long range tasks. These are just my experiences and opinions and lessons I've learned from the campfire stories.of course it's up to each person to decide what's best for them.

 

[southpa]

If I made a bad hit with the bow I wouldn't go get a faster arrow and a bigger broadhead and think that was going to fix my problem.

I did...a bigger bow with a heavier arrow and stronger broadhead did fix that problem haha. Now 85 pounds with a 650 grain arrow with a single bevel 175 up front and 24% FOC blows right through a front shoulder!!!

But the sentiment of your post is generally correct. I like to base my weapon systems on worst case scenarios. If I make a less than desirable shot than what is it going to take make that shot as lethal as possible? A 6.5 bullet isn't ranking high on the list.

 

[whirlwindjml]

did...a bigger bow with a heavier arrow and stronger broadhead did fix that problem haha. Now 85 pounds with a 650 grain arrow with a single bevel 175 up front and 24% FOC blows right through a front shoulder

I must say you got me there because I did watch a friend of mine intentionally shoot a deer through the shoulders and it was indeed a clean pass through it over 40 yards. I was amazed.

But I'm not in agreement with the rest of the consensus that the bigger helps after tracking an elk shot four times with a 300 win mag all around the boiler room but not in it... I don't hunt with that guy anymore. HIs bigger gun didn't make up for his **** poor shots. And from what his dad told me he did it again a few years later with the same gun. His bull went down and then got up and took off. His deal is he just does not practice especially for how far he thinks he thinks he can shoot.

I think the biggest misconception that people are having the 6.5 as a bullet for hunting is that it stays 6.5 mm on impact...it does not. It's a big a$s hole and the sectional density of that bullet drives it through. If it wasn't a big wound channel I would be surely grabbing my ultra mag and telling my kids to suck it up . But there's quite a few of us in North Idaho that have our freezers full of elk and if we were losing them we wouldv switched back years ago. The largest body bull I have seen taken here was with a 7x57 Mauser. I don't think old Joe felt guilty about it either ha ha

 

[Highvoltage]

I've watched a friend pile up a some elk with a 26 nosler using 140 accubonds. I wanted something with less recoil than my 300 but still did a great job. I put together a 6.5 saum and loaded the same bullet and have killed 2 bulls, both ran less than 25 yds. Next to no recoil and hammers elk. That rifle is 9.5 lbs so this year I put together a lightweight 6.5 creed with a little 21" barrel for a backpack hunt. I've loaded 140 accubonds for it and feel comfortable elk hunting with it. The saum runs the 140 at 3100, creed 2700, with that in mind I'll need to shoot drops and see where the minimum ft/ sec for expansion is at and be mindful of that. But to answer your question, grab a good bullet and practice. Keep in mind your max distance and go hunt. An elk shot through the lungs can't go far if they are filled with blood. Best wishes and good luck.

 

[buzby]

Why try to kill an animal with the smallest possible cartridge?

6.5cm and 6.5prc are far from the smallest possible cartridge.

Don't make me link the ever popular ".223 for bear, deer, elk, and moose" thread!

 

[257Tony]

After guiding 100 ish successful hunts for Bull Elk, my opinion is that cartridge and bullet choice are the about least important part of the hunt. "Bullet failure" and "not enough gun" are actually just excuses for poor shooting at least 99% of the time. If you can shoot under pressure, I'm comfortable with my hunters bringing anything 243/6mm and up. If you can't shoot under pressure, it doesn't matter what you bring.

 

[bobinpa]

After guiding 100 ish successful hunts for Bull Elk, my opinion is that cartridge and bullet choice are the about least important part of the hunt. "Bullet failure" and "not enough gun" are actually just excuses for poor shooting at least 99% of the time. If you can shoot under pressure, I'm comfortable with my hunters bringing anything 243/6mm and up. If you can't shoot under pressure, it doesn't matter what you bring.

I can appreciate your logic but I still feel a bigger cartridge is "better". If you hit them in the heart, almost anything will do the job. Shooting good under pressure is important but not everything... wind will move a lighter bullet further and a lighter bullet does less damage. If you shoot an elk with a 100 grain bullet from any 6mm and it goes bad and lands in the guts, that elk might not even die and if it does it could take days. If you hit an elk in the guts with a 225 grain bullet from a .338 anything, there is a good chance of a big exit wound and that elk will die quicker and give you a better chance of recovering it. Nobody wants to be in that situation, but in that situation, I'd definitely want a bigger cartridge!

My logic of "bigger is better" is based on marginal shots only. Everyone knows that with a perfectly placed bullet, almost anything will work.

Just my $.02

 

[buzby]

I can appreciate your logic but I still feel a bigger cartridge is "better". If you hit them in the heart, almost anything will do the job. Shooting good under pressure is important but not everything... wind will move a lighter bullet further and a lighter bullet does less damage. If you shoot an elk with a 100 grain bullet from any 6mm and it goes bad and lands in the guts, that elk might not even die and if it does it could take days. If you hit an elk in the guts with a 225 grain bullet from a .338 anything, there is a good chance of a big exit wound and that elk will die quicker and give you a better chance of recovering it. Nobody wants to be in that situation, but in that situation, I'd definitely want a bigger cartridge!

My logic of "bigger is better" is based on marginal shots only. Everyone knows that with a perfectly placed bullet, almost anything will work.

Just my $.02

A bullet with a larger diameter, by hundredths of an inch, is not going to make up for a bad shot.

There are 6mm bullets that make a larger permanent wound cavity than some .338 bullets. I just don't think blanket statement of one diameter being better than another across the board is accurate.

I do think it's quite plausible that someone would have more practice rounds behind their gun shooting 6.5cm than a .338 whatever. That would make a greater difference than 78 hundredths of an inch.

 

[southpa]

What I feel is being ignored by some is that regardless of the shot placement, a larger, heavier projectile (given similar velocity) is going to carry more energy. A hit anywhere on an animal with a larger, heavier projectile is going to hit with more energy than a hit anywhere with a smaller, lighter projectile.
A prius hitting a wall at 55mph is simply not going to carry the energy an F350 does hitting a wall at 55mph.
Bigger boom more energy. Simple. Shot placement is irrelevant in this debate IMO. You have to have to focus on a simple variable that makes a debate debatable.

 

[Txcowboy50]

What I feel is being ignored by some is that regardless of the shot placement, a larger, heavier projectile (given similar velocity) is going to carry more energy. A hit anywhere on an animal with a larger, heavier projectile is going to hit with more energy than a hit anywhere with a smaller, lighter projectile.
A prius hitting a wall at 55mph is simply not going to carry the energy an F350 does hitting a wall at 55mph.
Bigger boom more energy. Simple. Shot placement is irrelevant in this debate IMO. You have to have to focus on a simple variable that makes a debate debatable.

I agree with most of what you are saying a larger heavier projectile is going to carry more energy and will also have more recoil. There comes a point (for most people including me) where the boom is so big that affect bullet placement. I can shoot my 300wby a lot better than the 416wby and my 6.5 PRC better than the 300wby. Use the largest caliber and appropriate bullet that you can handle for the game in question.(300 wby is awesome on coyotes although not needed) But like Dirty Harry said.. "A man has to know his limitations."

 

[southpa]

I agree with most of what you are saying a larger heavier projectile is going to carry more energy and will also have more recoil. There comes a point (for most people including me) where the boom is so big that affect bullet placement. I can shoot my 300wby a lot better than the 416wby and my 6.5 PRC better than the 300wby. Use the largest caliber and appropriate bullet that you can handle for the game in question.(300 wby is awesome on coyotes although not needed) But like Dirty Harry said.. "A man has to know his limitations."

Again, we can keep moving the goal post around all day. But a bigger boom equals more energy. I think that the recoil argument is also fairly moot. I don't think everyone is advocating that we all shoot 338s or 416s. My wife can shoot a 300wm all day. The muzzle brakes today are amazing and anyone who argues that a mid sized magnum cartridge has too much recoil is not technically gaining much of a following.