300 Norma vs 300 Norma Imp

[LeddSlinger]

Even if its a non improved case you still need to fire form virgin brass.

I don't know how much I believe that anymore. I have had many rifles now, from Varmint rounds to large magnums, that shoot just as good from the first firing with virgin brass to shooting with brass fired 3 times. Some even improved rounds. While fireforming is the wisest choice to ensure the best accuracy when load testing, it cannot be made gospel for ALL rifles.

To name a few I've had shoot virgin brass extremely well:
20 TAC from 223 cases, 20 VarTarg, 6mm LBC Turbo 40 from Grendel and PPC cases, 338-375R from 300 PRC brass, 358 Norma Mag formed from 300 Win Mag cases, 7mm Rem Mag, 6XC formed from 308 Win, and probably a couple others I'm forgetting over the years. All have shot just as well with virgin brass as they do/did with Fireformed brass. I first thought it was just luck, but I've seen it too many times now. Therefor I start my load testing right away on virgin brass to make sure I am traveling in the right direction when the barrel is broke in.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I didnt say new brass cant shoot well in fact sometimes it shoots better. But it will not be the same load as formed brass. I wont do load development on new cases since I will have to do it over once they are formed. So to avoid aggravation, I fireform everything before load work up. I also wont start load work up until about 100 rounds are on the barrel for the same reason. Anytime I try to short cut that it ends in more work in the long run.

 

[Gamesniper19]

I didnt say new brass cant shoot well in fact sometimes it shoots better. But it will not be the same load as formed brass. I wont do load development on new cases since I will have to do it over once they are formed. So to avoid aggravation, I fireform everything before load work up. I also wont start load work up until about 100 rounds are on the barrel for the same reason. Anytime I try to short cut that it ends in more work in the long run.

Yeah it is a personal thing and I hear you. I guess for me it is around the word "better" and how much you tune. I would say for 97% of shooters who aren't competing, getting a rifle to shoot sub 1/2 min is completely fine. Yes, 1/4 or 1/5 min is better but IME and IMO that same 97% of shooters aren't capable of shooting consistent 1/4 min groups.

In my learning:

• Different barrels mature differently, especially during the first 100 rounds. Some are mature in 30 and some take 80 +/-. Recommend that a new loader find a bbl manufacturer they like, stick with them to help with consistency in gauging maturity. They can also use your chrono to help with knowing - a mature bbl will many times pick up 10-20 fps (caliber dependent). A bore scope might help too but in a brand new well made bbl, most folks may not be able to see what matters
• Personally I have found in shooting a ladder, there has been very little difference in 1x fired brass -v- 3x fired brass in accuracy UNLESS i am going a complete wildcat like the 7-300NMi. 300 win mag and 6.5 CM wont make a significant difference
• If your dies are off the shelf, which most are outside 100% wildcats, fire-forming to your chamber which was cut with who knows what reamer specs (for most guys with OTC calibers), may not be identical and you could be changing a small parameter when you bump it back - even more variance if you size full length -v- shoulder size. So fire-forming OTC brass to OTC specs may break your chamber-formed bras spec anyway. If you build a wildcat, send your reamer print to your die maker. Have them get it as close as humanly possible and stay within that spec
• Another way to help is to ask your smith for the print itself - that way you can engineer your brass to the chamber via the print. It will give you a great trim length and resizing bump to start with - you can always go up or down a thou or two once you shoot and get your results but you will be much better off from the start
• If you buy a 300WM, 6.5CM or other well known mature cartridge, it is likely wont need as much baby sitting. If you get high quality brass and you have a high quality chamber and bbl, achieving sub 1/2 min accuracy should also be less time consuming and easier to achieve through consistent quality control in reloading. Hell I have seen the odd 6.5CM shoot factory under 1/2 min but that was also the day I went and bought a lottery ticket. Nope didn't win - if I had I would be in Africa for 6 months rather than writing this post

I am sure there is a ton more to say but I am not sure anyone want to read a 3 page document so I went with top of mind, especially at 730 in the morning with an old brain and only 1 cup of coffee so far LOL

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If your testing this at long range, past 600yds you will see what I mean. Its sometimes hard to pick up at 600 even. But typically a rifle will shoot its smallest group right before it shoots its largest group when going up in powder charge. So if I tune a rifle before the barrel is fully broken in and its shoots small, then I clean the barrel and go out the next day and it speeds up 20-30 fps I will have huge vertical at long range. Same goes for new brass, in many cases fired brass wants more powder than new brass. If that happens, your not shooting just a little bigger, your shooting huge vertical. Neck tension is another aspect that shows up huge at those distances. Many times fired brass wants a different neck tension than the virgin case, even if it shot well on virgin brass. Not to mention that on new brass there is no carbon in the neck. So too many things change and I have wasted a lot of effort because I had to do the job twice. Shooting 1/2 moa consistently past about 800yds requires a pretty good tune not something you can get away with much error. If we are talking 600 and in then a lot of this stuff does not show up bad enough to make the rifle unusable.

 

[Rick Richard]

For you guys shooting 300 NMI have you experimented with the Hammer bullets and which one did you end up liking? I have a NMI with a 9 twist and since it is difficult to find Berger 230 Hybrids I am considering the Hammer line. Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

 

[Northkill]

For you guys shooting 300 NMI have you experimented with the Hammer bullets and which one did you end up liking? I have a NMI with a 9 twist and since it is difficult to find Berger 230 Hybrids I am considering the Hammer line. Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

I'd also like to see what someone could do with these:

.308 Cal-199gr Hammer Hunter™ - Hammer Bullets

Recommended twist rate is 1-9.25" minimum Bullet length is 1.625" Bullet weight is 197gr Recommended use: Big game hunting G7-BC=.299 from shot drops

hammerbullets.com

.308 195gr Bulldozer-2 - Badlands precision, LLC

Length: 1.650″ BC (G1): .675 BC (G7): .345 Twist: 1-10″ Price: 50/BOX

badlandsprecision.com

 

[Gamesniper19]

For you guys shooting 300 NMI have you experimented with the Hammer bullets and which one did you end up liking? I have a NMI with a 9 twist and since it is difficult to find Berger 230 Hybrids I am considering the Hammer line. Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

I have not personal experience with the Hammer Hunters...I have seen them in action through hunting friends this year on Pronghorn and they work a lot like barnes bullets terminally. I have also seen that they are very consistent in quality control for loading.
Hope that helps

 

[Huntnful]

I have full intentions to develop a load for the Hammer 199's and possibly even the 181's when I receive my 300NMI

Another member did develop a very accurate load with the 199's around 3400fps I believe with N570. But he had high ES that he didn't like. Can't remember who.

 

[Rick Richard]

I have not personal experience with the Hammer Hunters...I have seen them in action through hunting friends this year on Pronghorn and they work a lot like barnes bullets terminally. I have also seen that they are very consistent in quality control for loading.
Hope that helps

Thanks

I have used them with my 6.5 and 300 WSM and have a good idea what they will do on game. I was looking for info though pertaining to the 300 NMI.

 

[LeddSlinger]

I hope the Hammers work well for everyone. However, I wonder why a person would pay $63 for a box of 50 Hammer 199gr bullets when Berger is time tested and proven in the field for exceptional accuracy and terminal performance...?

Hammer bullets is actually located where I live and my son is friends with a kid that works there. Normally I would be curious about their bullets as well but at $1.26 per pill, I have no intentions of ever finding out. Shooting and building rifles is already expensive enough as it is! Lol

 

[Rick Richard]

Don't know why a person would pay $63 for a box of 50 Hammer 199gr bullets when Berger is time tested and proven in the field for exceptional accuracy and terminal performance for half the price...?

Hammer bullets is actually located where I live and my son is friends with a kid that works there. Normally I would be curious about their bullets as well but at $1.26 per pill, I have no intentions of ever finding out. Hope they work well for others

Because they are available where Berger's are not.

 

[wasskeet]

Don't know why a person would pay $63 for a box of 50 Hammer 199gr bullets when Berger is time tested and proven in the field for exceptional accuracy and terminal performance for half the price...?

Hammer bullets is actually located where I live and my son is friends with a kid that works there. Normally I would be curious about their bullets as well but at $1.26 per pill, I have no intentions of ever finding out. Hope they work well for others

I would guess, presently - one word in particular - availability.

 

[Huntnful]

I hope the Hammers work well for everyone. However, I wonder why a person would pay $63 for a box of 50 Hammer 199gr bullets when Berger is time tested and proven in the field for exceptional accuracy and terminal performance...?

Hammer bullets is actually located where I live and my son is friends with a kid that works there. Normally I would be curious about their bullets as well but at $1.26 per pill, I have no intentions of ever finding out. Shooting and building rifles is already expensive enough as it is! Lol

Because I live in California . Lead free only for hunting . And it is nice putting an order in and having it at your front door in 3 days and not having to beg people on the forums for bullets lol.

 

[LeddSlinger]

Because I live in California . Lead free only for hunting . And it is nice putting an order in and having it at your front door in 3 days and not having to beg people on the forums for bullets lol.

Oh ok, that makes sense. I always forget that there are still some hunters left in California. Lol! And no doubt Berger supply is rough right now. Have always heard good things about Hammers. Keep us posted on how they work out for you