Zero at 100 Yards and Leave Turret at 200 Yards for Hunting?

[Ckleeves]

A 300 yard zero allows me to hold dead on from 0-350 and not have to worry about anything in a quick hunting situation where you dont have time to range or dial. A 100 yard zero does not give you that flexibility if an animal jumps up at 250-350 you're going to hit quite a bit lower than POA. So I'm gaining quite a bit in the real world of hunting where everything isnt always perfect, so I gain about 100-150 yards in a quick situation...Basically Im just using a MPBR until I need to start dialing. Again, people can do whatever they want. A 100y zero DOES NOT work for me where I hunt, plain and simple. A 300y zero is much more practical for where I hunt big game, and I dont need or want to worry about ranging and dialing for a quick shot, or have to remember to aim X amount of inches high when something busts up from 250-350 yards. I like to hold center mass and know I'll be in business. Not that difficult to understand.

Wouldnt a 100 yard zero and then throw 1 mil or 3.25 moa (cartridge dependent of course, just an example) on the turrets while hunting do the exact same thing but reduce error? There is your 300 yard zero, and now you just spin back to 0 (takes less then 1 second?) when something pops up at 100 yards and you don't have to think about holding 10" low?

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

That is entirely possible and doable, and I get what you're saying, however I've already stated why I dont care for a 100y zero. I've thought what I had was good 100y zeroes over the years on numerous rifles/calibers, and when I dialed and shot out to 300 yards with them, they were never dead on at 300. They were either high, low, left, or right, X amount of inches. So I've just decided to actually zero at 300 yards from now on. In my mind and experience, I have less error by zeroing at 300 yards, then zeroing at 100 yards and dialing up from there. It works for me, and that's all I'm saying.

 

[jnwise]

Huh? I'd love to have a rifle that only dropped 16" @ 1000 yards.

That thing would probably kick like a sum biotch don't you think?

 

[jnwise]

Wouldnt a 100 yard zero and then throw 1 mil or 3.25 moa (cartridge dependent of course, just an example) on the turrets while hunting do the exact same thing but reduce error? There is your 300 yard zero, and now you just spin back to 0 (takes less then 1 second?) when something pops up at 100 yards and you don't have to think about holding 10" low?

1.1 mil is what my 300wsm with 190 Berger VLD at 2835 FPS. But honestly check out the kill zone of and elk ( ~ 18 in) or whitetail deer (~9 in). Here's and article explaining maximum point blank range (MPBR) hunting. It's just easier out to 300-400 yds. Every thing you have to adjust before you take your shot is an opportunity for a mistake. My 2 grains worth. https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/understanding-mpbr-for-better-shooting

 

[User4302021]

That is entirely possible and doable, and I get what you're saying, however I've already stated why I dont care for a 100y zero. I've thought what I had was good 100y zeroes over the years on numerous rifles/calibers, and when I dialed and shot out to 300 yards with them, they were never dead on at 300. They were either high, low, left, or right, X amount of inches. So I've just decided to actually zero at 300 yards from now on. In my mind and experience, I have less error by zeroing at 300 yards, then zeroing at 100 yards and dialing up from there. It works for me, and that's all I'm saying.

Okay, but you never answered my question. With that same 300 yard "walking around" zero, what does it matter if it is referenced as "0" or "3.5MOA"?

What does it benefit you to not be able to dial down past your zero stop at 300 yards?

What does it benefit you, if when talking about and comparing your drop tables, your numbers are different than everybody else's because you insist that your field zero and your initial baseline zero be the same number?

If you don't have a scope that will reliably dial from 100 yds to 300 yds and back, then that isn't a zero issue. You need a better scope. If you aren't a consistent enough shooter to dial down and back and hit to the same place, then whatever zero you use isn't helping you.

 

[clark33]

This is not meant as an attack on you, merely using your post as a basis for my comment!

Without knowing the history of these shooters, I'll ask this.....are they hunters or shooters? In real world hunting situations, I believe that having a zero somewhere beyond 100 yards is infinitely desirable! With a zero beyond the 100 yard mark.....it substantially lengthens the "hunters" range to quickly place shots on big game. If the animal is beyond the "point-blank" range of the cartridge/rifle, the "hunter" should have adequate time to plug in all of the necessary values to achieve the shot. Unless the game being fired upon is considerably smaller than deer and larger game....a few inches off of the "perfect" placement is inconsequential!

The targets that "hunters" hunters encounter at ranges under 400 yards.... often may "not" afford the "hunter" with sufficient time to deploy all of the technology ( range, shot angle, temperature, barometric pressure, wind angle/velocity, ect.) the bipod, mono-pod, for a surgically placed shot! The guys that shoot steel or paper, rarely have mere seconds to get a shot downrange on a moving or soon to move target! Jus' say'n! memtb

I know for sure Jeff Broz hunts, he's part of longrangeonly and Caylen and Phil train civilians, LE and offer a backcountry hunting long range course thru their company Modern Day Sniper and both were USMC Scout/Snipers, both big game hunt. Brian Litz is a ballistician who works for Berger but can't vouch if he hunts. Frank Galli is an instructor for Mile High Shooting Outdoors and was also a USMC Scout/Sniper, I don't know if he hunts.

They advocate a 100yd baseline zero, once you are at your desired hunting location you get current, up to date atmospheric conditions and can dial for 200 or 300 for a field/walking around zero while hunting to allow those quick 0 to 350 shots without dialing. The idea of the 100 yd baseline zero is to have a more accurate 200, 300 to whatever distance solution when dialing at different locations with different atmospheric conditions

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

It benefits me because I know when I zero at 300 yards and shoot at 300 yards, it is indeed zeroed at 300 yards. "0" to me is 300 yards, that's where my scopes are set for a 300y zero, "0".... 3.5 MOA is going to be around 475 yards for me...All I ever said is when Ive zeroed at 100 yards, and dial to 300, it's usually off a little bit. If a guy wants to zero at 100, then add 3 MOA or 1 MIL for a walk around 300y zero, then go right on ahead and do that! Lol, I dont have a problem with how anyone does their own thing. I'm simply stating how and why I do, what I do. I never asked anyones opinion or advice on it, and frankly I could give 2 craps how you, or anyone else thinks it should be done. Always more than 1 way to skin a cat, just because you do it differently, doesnt mean it's the right way, and the way I do it is the wrong way. I'm also not the one sitting here trying to tell everyone how and what they should be doing...Do what you want, how you want, as long as it works for you, who really gives a $hitt how it's done!! My MK4s track just fine, I shoot just fine, and my loads shoot just fine, but again, thanks for the no good assumptions on your end...

 

[Ckleeves]

1.1 mil is what my 300wsm with 190 Berger VLD at 2835 FPS. But honestly check out the kill zone of and elk ( ~ 18 in) or whitetail deer (~9 in). Here's and article explaining maximum point blank range (MPBR) hunting. It's just easier out to 300-400 yds. Every thing you have to adjust before you take your shot is an opportunity for a mistake. My 2 grains worth. https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/understanding-mpbr-for-better-shooting

I understand some guys want a MPBR zero, the problem is it is a very poor starting point for LR accuracy. If you want a 275 yd zero, or 300, 325 or whatever MPBR range you desire your best starting point is a 100 yard zero then dial whatever you want for your MPBR "zero" for the current conditions you are in. There is no rule against walking around in the woods with 1.1 mils dialed up if that's your thing for a MPBR zero.

I don't understand all the comments about how long it takes to dial. If it takes more then maybe 5 seconds to dial anything on the first revolution of a turret then it's time to dent some more primers and practice. It takes longer to pull your RF out of your pocket, get a range and put it back.

 

[User4302021]

I understand some guys want a MPBR zero, the problem is it is a very poor starting point for LR accuracy. If you want a 275 yd zero, or 300, 325 or whatever MPBR range you desire your best starting point is a 100 yard zero then dial whatever you want for your MPBR "zero" for the current conditions you are in. There is no rule against walking around in the woods with 1.1 mils dialed up if that's your thing for a MPBR zero.

I don't understand all the comments about how long it takes to dial. If it takes more then maybe 5 seconds to dial anything on the first revolution of a turret then it's time to dent some more primers and practice. It takes longer to pull your RF out of your pocket, get a range and put it back.

Problem here is that you have a bunch of old guys that probably don't even have a scope capable of being dialed, and they are chiming in with thier Leupold 3-9x40 practices.

They don't even understand what is being said, but they are dug in like ticks and refuse to be wrong.

Those of us who are also older (over 50), and have been on both sides of this fence are trying to educate them, but they aren't having any of it.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Sometimes you old guys are just stubborn, and have a tendency to think your way, is the only right way to do things...haha. Which is fine with me. I've learned a lot from some older guys over the years, and I've also taught and helped some older guys things along the way as well. Do what works for you, bottom line! I'm also not one of these "old" guys with a 3-9x Leupold with no dials, or concept of what's being said either haha. But yah, I've been on both sides, and I use what works for me, which is zeroing at 300 yards, and dialing up from there with the MK4s that have proven very reliable for me. Then again, your age, and assumptions are still showing a bit...

 

[JAYgs8163]

Sometimes you old guys are just stubborn, and have a tendency to think your way, is the only right way to do things...haha. Which is fine with me. I've learned a lot from some older guys over the years, and I've also taught and helped some older guys things along the way as well. Do what works for you, bottom line! I'm also not one of these "old" guys with a 3-9x Leupold with no dials, or concept of what's being said either haha. But yah, I've been on both sides, and I use what works for me, which is zeroing at 300 yards, and dialing up from there with the MK4s that have proven very reliable for me. Then again, your age, and assumptions are still showing a bit...

To each their own. We can all agree to disagree. What works for one may not work for the other. I know my rigs well enough that I zero at 100 because it offer the most accurate zero for ME. If I have a 300 or 400 yard shot I can make it with no dial because I know my rigs well enough. Practice, practice, practice and know you're gear. Out! Go practice!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I can agree with that sir! Waiting for the wind and rain to stop so I can go zero my 240 WBY/105g HPBTs with the new MK4 on top for coyote season.

 

[freak007]

what I am trying to say is atmospheric conditions will cause a 200 yard zero to shift, unless he wants to rezero every time he goes out. I'd suggest OP talk to any reputable long range shooting instructor and ask them what his zero range will be.
Dialing off of a 200 yard zero in a new hunting location is not generally advised, hence PRS guys and even long range hunters and form USMC scout snipers (Modern Day Sniper) zero at 100

What your entire argument is ignoring is physics. The *same* atmospheric conditions that affects your 200 yard zero also affects your 100 yard zero, albeit to a lesser degree. If atmospheric conditions change enough to move your 200 yard zero by 2", your 100 yard zero will have shifted by probably an inch or so, and your 1000 yard dial will probably be off by 10" or more. In that scenario, it wouldn't matter what your zero range is; if you fail to adjust for current conditions, or do not have accurate data, you are unlikely to have a good engagement.

Example - 162gr 7mm ELDX with a G7 BC of .318, MV is 2940 @ 28°F. Zeroed at 200y, with a DA of -1500' (typical of my hunting conditions). At 100 yards, I am 1.3" (1.2 MOA) high, at 300 my POI is 6.7" (2.1 MOA) low, at 500 I am 37.3" (7.1 MOA) low, at 1000 I am 259" (24.7 MOA) low. This is according the "Shooter" app (developed by Bryan Litz), and verified on paper to 700 yards.

If my conditions change, and my new DA is 12,000' (temp remains 28°F), my 100 yard POI is still 1.3" high. My 200 yard impact is still 0. My 300 yard has shifted to 5.9" (1.9 MOA) low, 500 yard is 33.3" (6.3 MOA) low, and 1000 yard is 212" (20.3 MOA low) this is again, calculated using the Shooter app, although unverified. Based on my established DOPE though, I have no reason to believe any substantial error exists in these calculations.

Conditions change *again*; this time we have a DA of 2500' and a temp of 85°F. Due to the increased temperature, MV is now 3006. These conditions are consistent with my mid-summer target practice. 100 yard POI is 1.2" (1.1 MOA) high, 200 yard is .1" low, 300 yard is 6.2" (2 MOA) low, 500 yard is 34.4 (6.6 MOA) low, 1000 is 233" (22.2 MOA) low. This is again calculated from the Shooter app. Since I am unable to hold .1 MOA from a field position, the data inside 300 yards is "unverified." However, I *can* hold .5 MOA pretty consistently, and the data from 400-740 yards has been verified as accurate.

What is the take away from all of this? Your zero range is not relevant. What is relevant is that you have a system. This system needs to be capable of gathering and logging accurate data, *and* verifying it against whatever ballistic calculator you use. Put garbage into your system, and it will produce garbage results.

With *my* system, my rifle, and my load; a change of 55°F AND 4,000' density does not substantially effect my trajectory inside of 300 yards. With this in mind, I zero at 200. From 0-250 I can hold dead on (elevation) and expect to impact within 3" of my POA. from 250-300, hold for a high shoulder shot, and I'm still good. Beyond 300, I need accurate data regarding my current atmospheric conditions. This level of precision is more than acceptable for me with my style of shooting and my style of hunting. I am not shooting 1" "X" rings. I am shooting 14"+ vital rings.

Would I travel from my "comfortable" -1500' DA to 12,000' and fire at a game animal? Not if I could avoid it. I would make every effort to validate my calculations in the conditions which I will be shooting. However, based on my already established and verified DOPE, I feel reasonably comfortable that the calculations provided would be accurate enough to be effective at the ranges I am willing to shoot.

 

[Sab62]

Does anyone zero at 100 yards but set their turret for 200 yard shot or MPBR and just hold on vitals out to a max range for simplicity? I can see how a 100 yard zero is convenient and with an elevation turret leaving it set on 1.75 MOA for example when hunting so it's an easy viral hold out to 250 yards or so. Anything further can be dialed.

I hunted w a 300 H&H w a Leupold VarXIII 3.5 -10 40MM scope for 10+ years in AK. Sighted in about 3 1/2 inches high at a hundred w 165 gr partitions or ballistic tips (depending upon game) loaded long. 200 gr color coded partitions were in the box as back up! Couldn't afford a range finder at the time so we used 19 in card board at 300-500 yds w our existing scope. We would put the bottom of the card board on horizontal cross hair and turn up the power on the scope till it met the pointer of the multi x reticule. 300=4x 400 = a little over 5x 500 = 8x. So that let us range critters. Sheep exactly, moose you just went cue to cue, caribou was the only one that required math. Gun shot 1in high at 300 yds, 9 in low at 400 yds (prefered shot because of easy hold) and to the pointer of the cue at 500 yds. Since that time, I have been able to purchase much fancier gear. Accurate rifles and 1st focal plane dial a shots. But for expediency in most hunting situations, that might call for a quick shot, IMHO you can not go wrong w dialing your scope to its maximum point blank range. I always take an animal's kill zone and shrink it by an inch to give me some latitude on my side. So an 8 inch kill zone I would set as 7 inches. Most quick calibers would give you at least at to 300 yds MPR (or really close). Stuff further than 300yds starts to look far and its time to dial, and usually you have time to dial. Looking back, there was great satisfaction and great confidence in learning a good rifle and shooting it well!