Your Ultimate 500 Yard Rig

[BrentM]

I was also not trying to start anything. Or even saying the creed was better. Just pointing out how many on here will jump up and say .308 or 7mm08 is fine for elk but not the creed. They are so close in real life. Of course you must consider everything before. So many variables. Plus what you feel is ethical. I don't take a shot I'm not 99 percent I'm sure I'll make. That way I know I did my best. Because even when we are sure we can make it nerves or other things can happen.

People who bash the creed are ignorant to terminal ballistics. It is not a do all cartridge nor is it always a good choice. It is a viable choice in the right hands and within its limits. Sectional density of a 140 6.5 is excellent and all takes is a little bit of research to understand both pro and con. For a dedicated elk rifle it's not my first choice but It'll do the job

 

[Overkill338]

People who bash the creed are ignorant to terminal ballistics. It is not a do all cartridge nor is it always a good choice. It is a viable choice in the right hands and within its limits. Sectional density of a 140 6.5 is excellent and all takes is a little bit of research to understand both pro and con. For a dedicated elk rifle it's not my first choice but It'll do the job

A .22 LR will do the job, but it's no more appropriate than the CM. It should be left to punching paper. I'm surprised it will ring steel loud enough to hear it :-D

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

What is a 300AX? What is the highest point of the trajectory with that 5.2 MoA? What is the range at which the lowest shot of the group will hit within 8" of the point of aim? What is the PBR with a maximum vertical dimension of 16" with all shots inside that number?

It's a 338 Lapua necked to 30 cal with an improved shoulder. It drops 5.2 minutes of angle or 27 inches at 500 from a 100 yard zero. I could zero at 375 and it will be within 8" of POA to 475.

 

[NeoConShooter]

i think we can assume that the superformance powder used in the ammunition you are siting has higher pressures than that used in the precision ammo I was comparing trying to be show equal performance.

I am sure that if you used the same powder and the same type and weight bullet that the 6.5 would have flatter trajectory and more energy farther out as it has less wind resistance. While the wound channel would be slightly larger in diameter with the 7 mm bullet.

I am not here to argue with you.. just wanted to show that they are about equal at 500 yards.. and in my eyes, the creedmoor has enough energy to meet your 1000 ft-lb of 500 energy criteria. Nothing more nothing less.. I shoot what I do and have had no problem killing elk ethically with lesser cartridges such as a .25-06. You do it your way and I will do it my way.

Additional recoil of larger heavier bullets/cartridges are not fun for me and do not aid in my ability to accurately place my bullets point of entry.

You might ask but why build a 6.5 PRC then? And the answer would be because building or assembly of another rifle is as enjoyable and almost as much fun as shooting it.

No, you can not assume that it has higher pressure. You know what they say about assumptions? It works by using propellant of a higher energy density that is more progressive in it's rate of burn. Most "Superformance" ammo by Hornady has shown to be extremely accurate, certainly as good as match ammo of a few years ago.
Your second assumption is also false. The larger diameter bullet will have a lower sectional density at any given bullet weight and less bore friction and thus a higher MV at any given pressure-time curve. MV is more important to PBR than BC, all other things being equal. Because the longer bullet also has a longer shank, in addition to more bore friction, it will also have more air resistance for any given LoA of projectile. The fatter bullet has more mass in a shorter shank and thus a longer point for a higher form factor.
You are absolutely right in your third PP. both rounds have more than enough energy, but they do have different trajectories and PBRs. With the right bullet, in a longer BBL to have the same Expansion Ratio as the 6.5CM, I believe that the 25-06 will deliver more PBR and energy than the 6.5CM. You see burning more powder gets more energy and the optimum distribution of that energy over the range required by the target yields the best and longest PBR.
In your next PP, you do not like recoil and I agree with you, but differ on how to achieve that. A very long BBL, with huge break, or silencer if they are legal in your state and where you hunt when combined with a heavier rifle and a over size Remington recoil pad and a face shield to prevent break gas concussion from impacting the nasal and sinus cavities makes shooting my 300RUM Cannon a joy on the range and it will do things no lesser gun can.
Lastly, I agree with your last PP completely! Building or buying new guns is more fun than you can beat with a stick!

 

[Overkill338]

No, you can not assume that it has higher pressure. You know what they say about assumptions? It works by using propellant of a higher energy density that is more progressive in it's rate of burn. Most "Superformance" ammo by Hornady has shown to be extremely accurate, certainly as good as match ammo of a few years ago.
Your second assumption is also false. The larger diameter bullet will have a lower sectional density at any given bullet weight and less bore friction and thus a higher MV at any given pressure-time curve. MV is more important to PBR than BC, all other things being equal. Because the longer bullet also has a longer shank, in addition to more bore friction, it will also have more air resistance for any given LoA of projectile. The fatter bullet has more mass in a shorter shank and thus a longer point for a higher form factor.
You are absolutely right in your third PP. both rounds have more than enough energy, but they do have different trajectories and PBRs. With the right bullet, in a longer BBL to have the same Expansion Ratio as the 6.5CM, I believe that the 25-06 will deliver more PBR and energy than the 6.5CM. You see burning more powder gets more energy and the optimum distribution of that energy over the range required by the target yields the best and longest PBR.
In your next PP, you do not like recoil and I agree with you, but differ on how to achieve that. A very long BBL, with huge break, or silencer if they are legal in your state and where you hunt when combined with a heavier rifle and a over size Remington recoil pad and a face shield to prevent break gas concussion from impacting the nasal and sinus cavities makes shooting my 300RUM Cannon a joy on the range and it will do things no lesser gun can.
Lastly, I agree with your last PP completely! Building or buying new guns is more fun than you can beat with a stick!

I pulled the bullet on the old Heavy Mag Hornady in 300, and the powder started expanding and ran over the top and spilled out a few grains. Total weight was something crazy like 81 or 82 grains.

 

[NeoConShooter]

Agreed! This is why ethics is rule #1 ...

View attachment 140560

I also agree! If the discussion of ethics is verboten I will stop statements and discussion of ethics. I would if allowed still like to discuss ballistics?

 

[NeoConShooter]

Chamber pressure measurement? No. Very few people have that ability. There are lots of ways of determining psi. I have confirmed drop with actually shooting to 1100 and use a magnetospeed.

Oehler (SP) makes an inexpensive way to measure pressure by epoxying a transducer to the underside of your free floated BBL where no one can see it when it's not connected to the rest of the machine. The transducers are cheap and you only need one machine.

 

[djm670]

Oehler (SP) makes an inexpensive way to measure pressure by epoxying a transducer to the underside of your free floated BBL where no one can see it when it's not connected to the rest of the machine. The transducers are cheap and you only need one machine.

Ha ha.. yes glue on strain gauges are cheap .. at $3 to $20 ... but then you have to convert the signal and need software to analyze it. Probably $600 to several thousand total depending on whose and how elaborate you use...

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RSI&Category_Code=PT

https://oehler-research.com/system-85-ballistic-instrumentation/

I will probably continue to analyze my fired cases and primers as it has served me well for 50 years.. evidently you are operating on a different level than I am. I am happy that you are able to do so.

And I am not ready to concede the barrel friction argument between a 6.5 diameter bullet and a 7 mm diameter bullet at the same weight or within 7 grains ... say a 143 grain 6.5 ELD X. The increase in surface area is significant for the half millimeter increase in diameter and I doubt the length growth for the similar weight (150 grain) ELD X 7 mm vs a 6.5 bullet of the same type ELD X is significantly longer.. although I have never had any 7 mm bullets to measure. I suspect those numbers are very close between the two bullets.

 

[BrentM]

A .22 LR will do the job, but it's no more appropriate than the CM. It should be left to punching paper. I'm surprised it will ring steel loud enough to hear it :-D

Well ignorance is bliss, you must be quite blissful ; )

 

[snox801]

I'd feel very confident in the creed with the 124 hh on any elk. First choice 300 win mag but I wouldn't be afraid with that bullet and that distance.

It's a 338 Lapua necked to 30 cal with an improved shoulder. It drops 5.2 minutes of angle or 27 inches at 500 from a 100 yard zero. I could zero at 375 and it will be within 8" of POA to 475.

I'll pull the creedmore guy crap and say wow my .257 Roy is the same thing. Lol
30" drop at 500. I'll ignore the fact of how much payload hits target just like most creed guys. Lol

 

[Overkill338]

Well ignorance is bliss, you must be quite blissful ; )

It's better to be silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[BrentM]

It's better to be silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Agreed

 

[Overkill338]

Agreed

I was just editing that post to leave something else for ya. All I'm trying to say, is the Creed is a puny little case, that was an answer without a question. The .260 had already answered the question of a 6.5 short action cartridge. I seriously can't see why the CM even stuck around. Other than people just like buying the latest and greatest. I don't have anything against the CM, just sometimes it's fun to stir up the dust

 

[Justin Bond]

7mm STW. Sako action. 26" barrel. Leupold VX 2. 162 grain Hornady Interlock. Done pretty well with that gun over the years out to 500 yards.