What went wrong? Opinions needed.

[Song Dogger]

Rhetoric and egos aside (!), I do appreciate the discussion on grass interference as a cause. It may be harder to duplicate in the field, other than through the process of elimination if all other factors prove minimal. Looking forward to figuring that out.

Also, I shot slightly downhill (not up) into a dry lake bed. The elk stood in front of the far embankment, so the high dust cloud was easy to see. If the shots went left or right much, my spotter and I didn't pick up on it. The spine shot was a few inches right.

 

[Bravo 4]

I tell ya what I'll do for ya, I'll come elk hunting with you and try to recreate the Kill (I mean shot).

 

[26Reload]

Songdogger....heres my scenario of your shot....
1...shooting down hill...ultimately...if your rangefinder has the ability to adjust for incline/decline ...you should have been on target...
2...shooting prone as you say...changes with ones ability to flex into postions..contorting the body to the surface...
3......and most important...shooting downhill in a prone position puts your body and head alignment out of whack...

My hypotheses....your eye wasn't centered with your scope and your shot went high because of looking down into the eyepiece..hence your eye and crosshair were misaligned and you shot high....

If you want to check this conclusion compare it to a bow and arrow looking thru a peepsight with the peepsight just below center of eye..it will always throw the arrow high...
Then check it with your rifle....your barrel will be shooting higher...

Of course this is all speculation as to how your eye was centered in your scope....

 

[WildRose]

All these things you mention exist, no doubt. I am extremely well aquainted with each of them. To a shooter in a solid prone position, all of them together and at the same time, might equal 2MOA at the outside. Once again, you are exaggerating to make your point.

Seems like it is YOUR forum. ****ing matches seem to happen when somebody disagrees with you....funny how that happens. Notice, that I haven't hurled a single pejorative or insult at you at all.

You aren't my audience anyway, I was laying out my case for the OP, and he has the info he needs now to make a decision.

On a side note, you have no idea who I am, or what experience I have, but it has been fun.

Good shooting.

There is zero basis in fact for what you are claiming and the rest of us can recognize it.

Just a half inch drop of the butt can cause more than a 2" change at the end of the barrel depending on the balance point.

You don't even understand the fact that at the exact same moment the bullet and case separate on firing the bullet is being accelerated forward and the rifle is being accelerated backward with equal force and instantaneous acceleration.

You're as welcome as anyone to an opinion but bad information is bad information no matter what the source and we take a lot of pride here in making sure people can get the best information possible.

 

[WildRose]

Rhetoric and egos aside (!), I do appreciate the discussion on grass interference as a cause. It may be harder to duplicate in the field, other than through the process of elimination if all other factors prove minimal. Looking forward to figuring that out.

Also, I shot slightly downhill (not up) into a dry lake bed. The elk stood in front of the far embankment, so the high dust cloud was easy to see. If the shots went left or right much, my spotter and I didn't pick up on it. The spine shot was a few inches right.

The more you get into this the more the answer seems pretty clear that it was just user error. Eye/sight alignment and dropping the butt.

We can and do all suffer from the same things from time to time particularly when we get excited.

In times of great stress and/or excitement we rarely rise to the occasion, the best we can hope for is to fall to the level of training we have absolutely mastered and practiced and even that is not a given.

Even the most talented and experienced shooters who don't challenge themselves with frequent trips to the field/range are going to make occasional mistakes. Of course this is also one of the great advantages to having an equally skilled and practiced hunting/shooting partner to help keep us on track.

 

[User4302021]

There is zero basis in fact for what you are claiming and the rest of us can recognize it.

Just a half inch drop of the butt can cause more than a 2" change at the end of the barrel depending on the balance point.

You don't even understand the fact that at the exact same moment the bullet and case separate on firing the bullet is being accelerated forward and the rifle is being accelerated backward with equal force and instantaneous acceleration.

You're as welcome as anyone to an opinion but bad information is bad information no matter what the source and we take a lot of pride here in making sure people can get the best information possible.

We get it Rosie, you disagree.

 

[Unoboats]

I know you do not want to hear this but if you consider yourself a true sportsman and hunter, you should respect the animal and limit your shots to shorter distances until you have mastered your marksmanship skills. Do not rely on technology solely for your skillset, develop your skillset through time and practice.

Ditto

 

[carswellb58]

I have spent a great deal of time studying and field testing parallax errors. I promise you, there is no way that the parallax misadjustment you described could account for that degree of error.

What I would urge you to do is:

(1) remember that the BC is *NOT* a fixed quantity. It varies withe the velocity of the projectile. The published BC is typically an average that is generally useful, but not exactly correct for every point on the bullet's trajectory. It's not unreasonable to tweak you BC setting to account for conditions and see if that comes closer to modeling you results. In the end, it's only your real world results that matter.

(2) Additionally, go to the field with conditions as close to your hunt as you can manage and see if you can reproduce your results in terms of settings and POI. Then make whatever turret corrections are necessary to achieve the correct POI and see what that tells you. Perhaps your 200 yard zero is 1/2 MOA off. That's really easy to do. If when you shoot to establish your zero, you shoot a really tight group that tears an oversized hole in the paper, it's not hard to mis-interpret where the center of the group really was. Heck, in past times when shooting a 100 your zero trial, I've been so excited at getting a really tight group, I completely ignored the fact that the group was 1/2 inch off of dead center. At 500 yards, it utterly screwed me when practicing with 4" steel targets. If your long distance correction suggests that your 200 yard zero is off, see if a that correction correlates to a small adjustment to your 200 yard zero that you can validate.

 

[Mileshotj]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

It could be a one of many problems. From wrong inputs to not lining up behind your rifle correctly. Should you care to come out to the range for a couple hrs of instruction I will help you work out your problems and get you to where you can acuretly shoot your weapon. You can ask question after question but until someone who KNOWS what he's doing can assesss the problem your only guessing! It's like calling a doctor and saying your stomach hurts and what's wrong.....you many have eaten something bad, you may have an ulcer or he'll you might be pregnant! Find someone to take a class with and teach you proper shooting and the correct mechanics of your weapon!

 

[JAYgs8163]

Did you verify your muzzle velocity with a quality item such a magnetospeed or some similar item. Shooting into a headwind can also be tricky depending on the strength of it. Sometimes the headwind can create a updraft or just creat the bullet to rise. I've experienced this my self when shooting into a headwind. Maybe not quite as much as you experienced but it definitely shot high off target. Good luck.

 

[xsn10s]

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this is all covered. First off as you and others have said set up and practice the way you plan to shoot in the field. I practice all my field positions and all hit point of aim point of impact except for one. Kneeling, at 100 yards that one always hits about 3-4 inches high for me. I only have one rifle with a bipod and I keep a mental note of where it hits with different surface hardness. Generally I don't like bipods. Also I have noticed that my bipod has to be tightened down pretty tight to be consistent. And there are of course other factors but here is my one that sticks out. BC, BC can change due to air density. I don't think that was the only factor in your shots going high, but it could of contributed. Which is why I mention it. So big things to do is reestablish your zero while shooting prone or the position you think you'll have the highest probability of shooting. Then go back and reestablish your adjustments according to distance and position. I hope this helps.

 

[George Dean]

Double post, trying to delete. Sorry.

 

[George Dean]

I suggest a medium size bean bag for your rear rest. Just pull it back under the stock until you have a nice cheek weld, then gently squeeze it 'til you steady on your point of aim, then take your shot, minding your breathing and trigger technique. Seems as if you've taken all the right steps resulting in a perfect shot. I also own all the gadgets, but a Mildot Master's a nice light weight substitute for all that equipment. Good hunting.

 

[jpope02]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.