What went wrong? Opinions needed.

[jpope02]

Were you and the target at the same elevation? Rule of thumb: if distance is uncertain shoot Hair NOT air.....And if target is above or below you shoot LOW.

 

[Knuckleballz]

Questions /observations. If parallax was off that much on my scopes I would have a pretty fuzy sight picture which wouldn't help making a shot especially in low light conditions. I have the hdb 2200 and I was lucky enough to find a factory preset ballistic curve that matches perfectly within 1/4 moa to my ammunition/bc/velocity. I have tested it from 10-100 degrees from 100-1000 yards and 900-10000 feet elevation. It has compensated correctly in all conditions. I made it a point to have my rifle and gevoids with me when I travel so I can shoot in different environments to validate accuracy. There are so many possibilities for you to have incorrect inputs. You need to spend the time practicing to verify everything. Having the geovids in the ambient temperature long enough for correct compensation is often overlooked. The more you practice, you will figure out where your issue is. Having your zero exactly at the distance you put into your geovid is critical.

 

[CRaTxn]

Songdogger...judging by your avatar or military shield...a lot of these guys have never been dressed down by a first sergeant so I am not so hard on you for being hard on this shooter. They may be correct, but I think I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for your service tough guy.

 

[Almondgrower]

Have someone kick your feet to simulate buck fever , lol ( Joking ) field practice shooting prone to work out all those issues to verify correction needed. I practice shooting squirrels and rock chucks at long distances with my elk gun to be ready for the season

 

[Barrelnut]

Song Dogger, looked thru the thread and could not find where you mentioned the actual velocity of your round. What was it? Reason I ask is - 5.1 MOA at 400 yards for a 300 WM with a 210 VLD seems like too much.
I was shooting a lowly 6.5 CM at 2690 FPS with 140 AMax last week at 400 yards at 3500 ft elevation and I only needed 5.2 MOA! So ran some numbers with a 210 VLD at say a reasonable 2850 FPS from a 300 WM and the number was more like 4.2 MOA.
If you were running hot (like every 300 WM shooter on this forum) and running say 2950 FPS, you should have only needed 3.9 MOA.

 

[Yeager]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

 

[Yeager]

Consider a through evaluation of your bullet velocity, don't trust tables. Why are you using a target bullet for hunting?

 

[Nimrodmar10]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

If it's not the gun, then it has to be the shooter. That or you might have ranged him incorrectly. Did you chronograph your load to verify your velocity, and at what temperature?

 

[freddiej]

song dogger, after reading the first page of comments and suggestions I am compelled to say this. I am going to make a wild guess and say your stock on your rifle is a stock malleable plastic one. I am also going to guess that your rifle barrel is a #3 or #3.5 profile (magnum sporter). I ran into just about this exact problem with a friend's long range hunting rifle (300 RUM). my groups were about 6" higher than his groups at 300 yards. 100 yard sight in. 190 grain Burger slugs. He neglected to tell me he was using a "leadsled" to shoot this brutal recoiling beast. when I shot it; I was prone or off the bench, bi-pod, and a sandbag between me and the paper thin butt pad. his ballistic computer was off by several feet at 600 yards. the VLD slug carried much better than his computer stated it should. after finding out what he was doing at the range I replicated his method and replicated his results. the strap holding the gun down in the sled was holding the barrel bent. it was not pretty. so yes, ditch the lead sled, when shooting at the range, shoot in all positions you might shoot on the hunt, just a small suggestion to stop the possibility of flinch.. muzzle brake that puppy. go to a gunsmith and find out if your rifle stock fits your body, yes this can make for a more comfortable experience at the range and the field. if I am right about your stock, please have it re-stocked with something that is stiffer and will help you shoot better. I suggest Chet Brown of Brown Precision in California. He makes the best stocks I know of. High Mountain Tech on the east coast are no slouchers either. I personally like laminated wood stocks, so I would go with Boyd's custom stocks. after that it is all up to you to practice until you can reliably deliver the round out to how ever far you are comfortable with.

 

[Brtrout2]

Were you and the target at the same elevation? Rule of thumb: if distance is uncertain shoot Hair NOT air.....And if target is above or below you shoot LOW.

I also would check your range finder to an another app like shooter. I had to adjust my Leica to my app that was on for the gun I was shooting they were different when you get long range. They all need to match.

 

[yobuck]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

I cant believe this is still being discussed.
Advice and opinions?
Point is you probably wont take it anyway.
The main problem lies within the first sentence of your post.
Fact is you were very lucky, but fact also is that luck usually plays at least some roll.
But 8 shots is sorta over the top for luck.
Even with less gun, having just a plain old no dial scope, that bull at that distance should have been dead with less shots. lol
(OPINION) You were relying too much on your equipment to furnish the results your basic ability alone should have provided.
You could have killed that bull with that gun at that distance easily without dialing the scope.
I would suggest making up just a basic elevation chart on paper for 50 yd intervels for an average elevation and conditions for where you hunt or shoot. Never mind its not perfect, just go out where you can shoot at some rocks at various distances and shoot. Practice holding over after the first shot as opposed to more fooling around with the dial.
If the miss is large, practice dialing to the hit, don't even bother looking at the chart or rangefinder or anything after the first shot. Concentrate on just you and the gun making the shot. Also practice just guessing the distance, and see how few shots you can hit it with.
It dosent take the very best shooter, with all the latest and best equipment, it just takes somebody who knows their gun and how to use it.
And for that, all you need do is see the first hit.

 

[Wraith Hunter]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

I am quite impressed with your knowledge and the application of the knowledge you show. The posts as well are very informative. I long range shoot a .300 Weatherby out to 600 yards and I develop my own hand loads. I am not as technical as you so I must keep things simple. I use a PAST recoil pad for all of my test shooting and I use the same recoil pad for actual hunting. I use a bipod for sight-in and the same bipod for hunting. I have found a 180 grain Nosler HPBT, coupled with 184 grains of MRP or Reloader 22, performs much better for me than a 220 grain and the ballistics indicate the 180 grain has more velocity and energy out to at least 500 yards than any of the 220 grain loads.

I actually use an Old Redfield Accutrac 3X12 scope from the 80s and I developed a range compensating disk for the scope by setting the scope 1 inch high at 100 yards as for my loads this placed the shot right at the bullseye at 200 yards. Next I mark the elevation disk with the appropriate elevation change for each additional distance out to 600 yards by firing the rifle and then I mark the disc appropriately. Again I use the same recoil pad, bipod and the jacket I will use for hunting.

During the reload process I measure each powder charge down to a kernel and I measure case capacity for each case after resizing. At one time I also measured the weight of each bullet as well. However I found the bullet-to-bullet weight so consistent I no longer perform that step.

A purist can say I should measure the moisture level of the power to ensure uniformity of weight from can to can and from reloading date to date. However I have found my accuracy is more than sufficient without adding that step.

I have found my distance shooting accuracy is significantly enhanced with a trigger set to less than 1 pound.

I have found my Weatherby is a trifle finicky as it likes the 180 grain Nosler HPBT better than other bullets. Better accuracy with that bullet.

The afore mentioned method allows me to place a shot well within the black consistently out to 600 yards.

 

[Wraith Hunter]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

With nothing supporting the butt I will double down on that being the issue. Obviously we can't diagnose this from our chairs but that is the first place I would start. Think about your field of view. It does not take much movement to be off target by 3-4moa and still be able to spot your shot. You need a good solid rear rest.

 

[Wraith Hunter]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

Parallax is not the issue to that degree while it may have factored in.
How high were you on your bipods, I'm guessing high to get above the grass.
Did you have a rear bag?
What I'm guessing most likely, is you got too high to get above the grass and weren't stable enough at your shoulders and elbows and when you fired the gun recoiled back and the butt dropped down while the barrel jumped, sending each shot high.
Aside from that, ditch the lead sled, practice shooting prone and develop the shooting fundamentals to use in the field.
Also ignore the numbers on the parallax knob and adjust it to what your eye tells you.
Hopefully that helps, but try setting a target at the same range, adjust your bipods to the same height, then see where your shots land. You could even run a 100 feet and flop down to shoot and see how the elevated heart rate affects you.
Good luck and hopefully that helps

It may be as simple as the sight picture through the scope changed when you were shooting at a live target. This quite common. 600 Yards is not an extreme shot so the misses appear to be a gross error. For me, it is important I target practice on flat ground, then on both uphill and downhill targets.