What went wrong? Opinions needed.

[WildRose]

I personally am not clear on how his shooting/zeroing took place. Lead Sled, bipod on, bipod off, bipod in the dirt, bipod on hard surface, bipod loaded or not. I am leaning toward the problem lies with the combo of actions with the sled and the bipod.

Second would be data input in the shooting solution. A simple mistake of pressure adjusted or absolute will make a couple moa change in impact. Been there done that.

Steve

To save you reading back through he stated he did his sighting in just off of the lead sled which is where the flags started to fly for most of us.

Not only are they hard on equipment the rifle reacts completely differently under recoil strapped down in one than it would off the bipod or any other rest.
You just can't remove the human from the equation and get the same results in the field.

 

[Canhunter35]

How exactly does this fix the problem, if the final zero wasn't adjusted on the Leadsled, and lack of basic marksmanship wasn't causing the misses?

I'm glad ur confident in ur computer diagnosis.
The rest of us were giving him options, it's up to the op to test and figure out what may have gone wrong.

 

[Ckgworks]

Yup, it was grass.....don't bother ditching the lead sled, practicing from hunting positions off bi-pods, learning the back ground math of a Ballistic App, adding a solid rear rest to stop stock drop, or any of the other test options others have said......it was only grass and will never happen again if you don't shoot through grass!

 

[User4302021]

He got groups by not holding the rifle. Had you paid any attention to the subject you'd know he was shooting off of a lead sled when sighting in.

No, back to basic physics and the equal and opposite reaction, with the ignition of the bullet if the rifle is held low on the shoulder it immediately drops. Spend some time with Archenemies and the principal of the lever additionally.

While you're at it maybe you should study up on triggers and how things like lock time and dwell time and poor trigger handling can induce errors before the bullet ever exits the bore as well.

You may eventually understand then why some shooters want a great deal of free play after the trigger breaks so the bullet has time to exit the bore before it bottoms out while others want zero over travel and a soft stop so as to avoid any impact at all to reduce those errors. The free play allows momentum to build and with a hard stop on the back end the gun/barrel will move ever so slightly inducing errors.

We're not just discussing parallax here, we're discussing poor eye/sight aliment. If poor alignment didn't cause errors every rifle would shoot the same once sighted in for every user, they don't. Again, a lack of understanding and experience can be solved but you won't do it on the internet.

All these things you mention exist, no doubt. I am extremely well aquainted with each of them. To a shooter in a solid prone position, all of them together and at the same time, might equal 2MOA at the outside. Once again, you are exaggerating to make your point.

Now, time to dry it up, we don't need yet another endless, longwinded ****ing contest from the peanut gallery crapping up Len's forum.

Seems like it is YOUR forum. ****ing matches seem to happen when somebody disagrees with you....funny how that happens. Notice, that I haven't hurled a single pejorative or insult at you at all.

You aren't my audience anyway, I was laying out my case for the OP, and he has the info he needs now to make a decision.

On a side note, you have no idea who I am, or what experience I have, but it has been fun.

Good shooting.

 

[User4302021]

Yup, it was grass.....don't bother ditching the lead sled, practicing from hunting positions off bi-pods, learning the back ground math of a Ballistic App, adding a solid rear rest to stop stock drop, or any of the other test options others have said......it was only grass and will never happen again if you don't shoot through grass!

Great suggestions all.

 

[FURMAN]

Seems like everyone here is giving you all kinds of reasons why you missed. Except, none of the reasons they have given, even if you combined several together at one time, would account for the sheer size of the misses you were experiencing.

Niether does anyone seem to grasp that you zero'd at distance before the hunt, and did a sort of zero confirmation after the hunt.

Your ballistics program wasn't the problem.
Your zero wasn't the problem.
your parallax wasn't the problem.
Loading the bipod wasn't the problem.

You answered your own question in your original post with point #3. The only thing mentioned in this whole thread that would give you such a drastic and disappearing shift of Point of Impact is that you were mowing grass, plain and simple. I've seen it, I've done it. It sucks.

Watch your mechanical offset (the height of the scope above bore), and don't shoot grass. You will be fine.

If you actually believe a word you typed I am not sure you should be giving advice on this forum. You nor anyone else can diagnose his issue, with the certainty that you proclaim, form a keyboard. On top of that if you really believe you can maintain the same POI with and without a solid rear rest, especially from field positions, I challenge you to come show me. I do not know what your experience is or what your skill set is but having a solid rest for predictable long range impacts is just as important as have a solid front rest such as a bipod. Most of this has been discussed in length in this thread. To inexperienced readers validating your ballistic app at your shooting area is not complete validation. I would never take a setup from my location at 1100 ft at 80 degrees to another location, say 6000 ft at 40 degrees, and not validate my drops on a target I brought or a rock at distance.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I don't think Dog was looking for a fight...

Steve

 

[User4302021]

If you actually believe a word you typed I am not sure you should be giving advice on this forum.

To which comment are you refering, and if you aren't sure, then what qualifies you to judge that?

On top of that if you really believe you can maintain the same POI with and without a solid rear rest, especially from field positions, I challenge you to come show me.

I never said that for one, so don't know where that came from. Secondly, the issue at hand isn't small changes in POI, it is missing by feet at 400 yds from the prone.

But to answer your question, shooting a consistent POI at 400 yards without a rear bag isn't all that hard. After all, Marines and soldiers and plenty of others are doing it just about everyday and hitting targets much smaller than an accommodating elk.

To inexperienced readers validating your ballistic app at your shooting area is not complete validation. I would never take a setup from my location at 1100 ft at 80 degrees to another location, say 6000 ft at 40 degrees, and not validate my drops on a target I brought or a rock at distance.

If you had actually taken the time to run those numbers in something like JBM, or maybe had the experience of actually shooting at those extremes you mentioned, you would know that the lower temperature and higher altitude are offsetting factors that leave you with an almost identical come up in both scenarios at 400 yards.

Basically, out to almost 500 yards, your environmentals don't matter. For virtually every one of the big game rounds we hunt with, your dope doesn't change enough to be an issue, especially with a 200 yard zero. From sea level at 80 degrees to 20 degrees at 10,000 ft. ASL, your dope changes less than 0.5 MOA at 400 yds.

You don't have to believe me, run the numbers yourself.

 

[User4302021]

All right, let's just stop. I really am not looking for a fight.

I tend to defend my positions a little bluntly, but we all want the OP to get the help he needs.

I apologize if anyone felt offended.

 

[FURMAN]

To which comment are you refering, and if you aren't sure, then what qualifies you to judge that?

I never said that for one, so don't know where that came from. Secondly, the issue at hand isn't small changes in POI, it is missing by feet at 400 yds from the prone.

But to answer your question, shooting a consistent POI at 400 yards without a rear bag isn't all that hard. After all, Marines and soldiers and plenty of others are doing it just about everyday and hitting targets much smaller than an accommodating elk.



If you had actually taken the time to run those numbers in something like JBM, or maybe had the experience of actually shooting at those extremes you mentioned, you would know that the lower temperature and higher altitude are offsetting factors that leave you with an almost identical come up in both scenarios at 400 yards.

Basically, out to almost 500 yards, your environmentals don't matter. For virtually every one of the big game rounds we hunt with, your dope doesn't change enough to be an issue, especially with a 200 yard zero. From sea level at 80 degrees to 20 degrees at 10,000 ft. ASL, your dope changes less than 0.5 MOA at 400 yds.

You don't have to believe me, run the numbers yourself.

You stated it was grass that caused his issue. You completely dismissed every other suggestion in the thread. If you read the entire thread I never suggested his data solution was off because as you stated it would not have caused him to be off that far. Trust me I have run pretty much every possible data solution for rounds and bullets I shoot for every elevation and hunting condition I shoot in. We owe that to the animal but simply running the data is not the same as validation period. If you do not validate please stop shooting animals long range. I brought that up because in your post you made it sound unimportant and there will be many others reading this and incorrectly believe what you typed. What others are doing all day everyday does not change the fact that most people shooting without a rear bag are going to drop the heel on the shot and miss high. I suspect if he were a military sniper who had been trained and shot thousands upon thousands of rounds long range he would not have been on here asking for help. Maybe I am wrong.

 

[FURMAN]

All right, let's just stop. I really am not looking for a fight.

I tend to defend my positions a little bluntly, but we all want the OP to get the help he needs.

I apologize if anyone felt offended.

I did not believe we were fighting. I am not offended in the least. I do believe you were trying to help. My suggestion, take it or leave it, maybe next time simply offer one more thing he should check. In this case ask if grass may have been the culprit. I believe the OP is smart enough to sift through the suggestions and ask any follow up questions he may have.

 

[User4302021]

I did not believe we were fighting. I am not offended in the least. I do believe you were trying to help. My suggestion, take it or leave it, maybe next time simply offer one more thing he should check. In this case ask if grass may have been the culprit. I believe the OP is smart enough to sift through the suggestions and ask any follow up questions he may have.

I see your point in both posts above, fair enough. We'll leave it at that.

 

[Song Dogger]

I personally am not clear on how his shooting/zeroing took place. Lead Sled, bipod on, bipod off, bipod in the dirt, bipod on hard surface, bipod loaded or not. I am leaning toward the problem lies with the combo of actions with the sled and the bipod.

Second would be data input in the shooting solution. A simple mistake of pressure adjusted or absolute will make a couple moa change in impact. Been there done that.

Steve

To clarify, zeroing and validating drops out to 700 yards were done on the Lead Sled, bipod detached. I verified the 200 yard zero with an unloaded bipod on a bench with rear support, one before and one after the hunt on the same target, and the holes touched - too small of small sample, I realize. No need to re-suggest problems with this process, it's been emphasized.

There was nothing wrong with the shooting solution or it's data input. I've run through it dozens of times with different apps, even significantly changing environmental conditions just in case. It was the shooter, not his equipment.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

To clarify, zeroing and validating drops out to 700 yards were done on the Lead Sled, bipod detached. I verified the 200 yard zero with an unloaded bipod on a bench with rear support, one before and one after the hunt on the same target, and the holes touched - too small of small sample, I realize. No need to re-suggest problems with this process, it's been emphasized.

There was nothing wrong with the shooting solution or it's data input. I've run through it dozens of times with different apps, even significantly changing environmental conditions just in case. It was the shooter, not his equipment.

I guess that narrows it down. Time spent shooting rocks with the given equipment in hunting positions should find the answer.

Steve