What went wrong? Opinions needed.

[WildRose]

Not without proper form and trigger control, unless they figure out a way around that too

"Think they are Carlos Hathcock".

If you don't even have a handle on the basics and fundamentals as I said, no amount of tech is going to make you a precision LR hunter/shooter.

Any idiot can dial it all up if they are given perfect data and pull off a lucky shot.

Repeating it is a whole nuther world.

 

[User4302021]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

Seems like everyone here is giving you all kinds of reasons why you missed. Except, none of the reasons they have given, even if you combined several together at one time, would account for the sheer size of the misses you were experiencing.

Niether does anyone seem to grasp that you zero'd at distance before the hunt, and did a sort of zero confirmation after the hunt.

Your ballistics program wasn't the problem.
Your zero wasn't the problem.
your parallax wasn't the problem.
Loading the bipod wasn't the problem.

You answered your own question in your original post with point #3. The only thing mentioned in this whole thread that would give you such a drastic and disappearing shift of Point of Impact is that you were mowing grass, plain and simple. I've seen it, I've done it. It sucks.

Watch your mechanical offset (the height of the scope above bore), and don't shoot grass. You will be fine.

 

[WildRose]

Seems like everyone here is giving you all kinds of reasons why you missed. Except, none of the reasons they have given, even if you combined several together at one time, would account for the sheer size of the misses you were experiencing.

Niether does anyone seem to grasp that you zero'd at distance before the hunt, and did a sort of zero confirmation after the hunt.

Your ballistics program wasn't the problem.
Your zero wasn't the problem.
your parallax wasn't the problem.
Loading the bipod wasn't the problem.

You answered your own question in your original post with point #3. The only thing mentioned in this whole thread that would give you such a drastic and disappearing shift of Point of Impact is that you were mowing grass, plain and simple. I've seen it, I've done it. It sucks.

Watch your mechanical offset (the height of the scope above bore), and don't shoot grass. You will be fine.

Heel/butt slippage alone can easily account for an even larger error. Poor cheek weld/eye sight alignment can too.

Combine them and you can easily have misses measured in feet at 400 yards.

Just going from the lead sled to the shoulder can instigate a foot or more of error if you aren't properly managing the recoil.

 

[Bravo 4]

I would have considered the grass as a probable if it weren't for the fact that all eight shots just went high. When shooting through any obstruction, especially when that close to the muzzle and the target so far out, I doubt you would have a consistent POI.

 

[WildRose]

I would have considered the grass as a probable if it weren't for the fact that all eight shots just went high. When shooting through any obstruction, especially when that close to the muzzle and the target so far out, I doubt you would have a consistent POI.

You're certainly not going to get a consistent rise. If anything the velocity loss is going to cause a rapid drop.

 

[User4302021]

Heel/butt slippage alone can easily account for an even larger error. Poor cheek weld/eye sight alignment can too.
Combine them and you can easily have misses measured in feet at 400 yards.

Really? You think that from a solid prone position, at 400 yards, a slightly incorrect hold on the rifle can cause a 2 ft (6 MOA) difference in POI?

If the OP was THAT bad a shooter, how the hell did he ever get the rifle to group in the first place?

I would have considered the grass as a probable if it weren't for the fact that all eight shots just went high. When shooting through any obstruction, especially when that close to the muzzle and the target so far out, I doubt you would have a consistent POI.

The OP didn't say he had a consistent POI, he said they all went high by "feet".

 

[WildRose]

Really? You think that from a solid prone position, at 400 yards, a slightly incorrect hold on the rifle can cause a 2 ft (6 MOA) difference in POI?

If the OP was THAT bad a shooter, how the hell did he ever get the rifle to group in the first place?

The OP didn't say he had a consistent POI, he said they all went high by "feet".

Who said anything about "slightly incorrect".

A half inch drop of the butt will impart more than 2" of rise in the bore.

Do the math on just a half inch rise of the bore at 100, 200, and 400 yards and get back with us.

In many scopes if your eye is more than half an inch out of alignment with the reticle you will get an even bigger error.

One of the most common errors shooting uphill from a relatively flat position using a bipod is to drop the butt considerably inducing both a significant eye/sight/cheek alignment in addition to driving down the butt of the rifle on recoil.

The OP didn't say he had a consistent POI, he said they all went high by "feet"

In basic English that means his POI was consistently high by several feet.

Obviously you lack the experience to even understand what we're talking about so this would be a good opportunity to learn.

 

[User4302021]

Who said anything about "slightly incorrect".A half inch drop of the butt will impart more than 2" of rise in the bore.

That math may very well be correct, I'll stipulate that. But it is irrelevent, he would have to have the muzzle already elevated at the time of cartridge ignition for that to be the cause. If his muzzle was pointed at the target upon ignition, the bullet exited the bore long before the butt had a chance to slip as much as 1/2 inch. If he holds the rifle that badly anyway, how did he ever get it to group in the first place?

In many scopes if your eye is more than half an inch out of alignment with the reticle you will get an even bigger error.

The worst parallax error I've ever seen amounted to 2 MOA. Even with parallax adjusted to 100 yards, it would not have accounted for this much error. If he can't tell his eye is 1/2 inch or more out of the eyebox and has scope shadows all around, how did he ever get it to group in the first place? (At 600 yds no less)

One of the most common errors shooting uphill from a relatively flat position using a bipod is to drop the butt considerably inducing both a significant eye/sight/cheek alignment in addition to driving down the butt of the rifle on recoil.

It is a common error, it just has nothing to do with the situation the OP described, and again the effect is greatly overstated by you.

I've shot from some pretty messed up positions, including rollover prone, shooting through a loop hole, with the rifle canted 90 degrees. The rifle slips on recoil, to be sure, but it doesn't have anywhere near the effect you are attributing to it.

In basic English that means his POI was consistently high by several feet.

Yep, I'm pretty sure that is what I said, "feet" is definitely plural....we agree on that.

Obviously you lack the experience to even understand what we're talking about so this would be a good opportunity to learn.

LOL! You have no idea how hilarious that is. You made me smile!

 

[Roll-Yur-Own]

Simple fix:

1. - Ditch the Leadsled!!! - They stink!
2. - Practice prone!
3. - Practice prone!
4. - Practice prone!
5. - Practice prone!

 

[yobuck]

Well the good part is that you got the bull, so congrats on that. Your good friends wont press you on all the little details. lol
I do think it has become very easy to complicate what used to be less complicated, and thus make a mistake,
especially when a bit nervous.
A miss is also a sighter shot, and there is still nothing better as for information.
Are we here to play with our toys, or kill an animal?

 

[User4302021]

Simple fix:

1. - Ditch the Leadsled!!! - They stink!
2. - Practice prone!
3. - Practice prone!
4. - Practice prone!
5. - Practice prone!

How exactly does this fix the problem, if the final zero wasn't adjusted on the Leadsled, and lack of basic marksmanship wasn't causing the misses?

 

[WildRose]

That math may very well be correct, I'll stipulate that. But it is irrelevent, he would have to have the muzzle already elevated at the time of cartridge ignition for that to be the cause. If his muzzle was pointed at the target upon ignition, the bullet exited the bore long before the butt had a chance to slip as much as 1/2 inch. If he holds the rifle that badly anyway, how did he ever get it to group in the first place?

The worst parallax error I've ever seen amounted to 2 MOA. Even with parallax adjusted to 100 yards, it would not have accounted for this much error. If he can't tell his eye is 1/2 inch or more out of the eyebox and has scope shadows all around, how did he ever get it to group in the first place? (At 600 yds no less)

It is a common error, it just has nothing to do with the situation the OP described, and again the effect is greatly overstated by you.

I've shot from some pretty messed up positions, including rollover prone, shooting through a loop hole, with the rifle canted 90 degrees. The rifle slips on recoil, to be sure, but it doesn't have anywhere near the effect you are attributing to it.


Yep, I'm pretty sure that is what I said, "feet" is definitely plural....we agree on that.


LOL! You have no idea how hilarious that is. You made me smile!

He got groups by not holding the rifle. Had you paid any attention to the subject you'd know he was shooting off of a lead sled when sighting in.

No, back to basic physics and the equal and opposite reaction, with the ignition of the bullet if the rifle is held low on the shoulder it immediately drops. Spend some time with Archenemies and the principal of the lever additionally.

While you're at it maybe you should study up on triggers and how things like lock time and dwell time and poor trigger handling can induce errors before the bullet ever exits the bore as well.

You may eventually understand then why some shooters want a great deal of free play after the trigger breaks so the bullet has time to exit the bore before it bottoms out while others want zero over travel and a soft stop so as to avoid any impact at all to reduce those errors. The free play allows momentum to build and with a hard stop on the back end the gun/barrel will move ever so slightly inducing errors.

We're not just discussing parallax here, we're discussing poor eye/sight aliment. If poor alignment didn't cause errors every rifle would shoot the same once sighted in for every user, they don't. Again, a lack of understanding and experience can be solved but you won't do it on the internet.

Learn to read and understand the material, get some experience and you can be a lot more help and won't find yourself making foolish statements so often.

Ask good questions, you'll get good and very polite helpful answers here bu when you come blowing in obviously out of your depth pontificating you're going to slam right into the great walls of facts, physics, and experience around here and it won't ever end well when you do.

Now, time to dry it up, we don't need yet another endless, longwinded ****ing contest from the peanut gallery crapping up Len's forum.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

How exactly does this fix the problem, if the final zero wasn't adjusted on the Leadsled, and lack of basic marksmanship wasn't causing the misses?

I personally am not clear on how his shooting/zeroing took place. Lead Sled, bipod on, bipod off, bipod in the dirt, bipod on hard surface, bipod loaded or not. I am leaning toward the problem lies with the combo of actions with the sled and the bipod.

Second would be data input in the shooting solution. A simple mistake of pressure adjusted or absolute will make a couple moa change in impact. Been there done that.

Steve

 

[Korhil78]

Easiest thing to do is just go shoot it and see what it does. If it's on target then you can eliminate a lot of what you thought could have been the problems. If it shoots high, have someone else shoot it and see what it does. If their shots arnt high, then you will know it's something you are doing wrong.

I'm just under the assumption that if it were grass then the bullet would be all over the place at over 400 yds. Especially since the grass was at the beginning of the shot and not closer to the target.

My thinking is it was a combination of mistakes which includes the shooter. But none of us were there so all he can do is a process of elimination.