What system, MOA or Mil, do you use?

[meanmrmustard]

If you are unsure of the shot when ranging with a good scope, I feel you shouldn't take the shot even if you can verify it with a rangefinder. What etis is saying is how most people feel about long range hunting in general, "too many variables", "move closer". That applies even if you know the distance.

If you're unsure of distance, regardless of how far you THINK it is with using a scope, it pays to know how much farther you've crawled to your quarry. Ergo, use a rangefinder. Nuff said.

That was my point. With a crappy scope, or even a high dollar optic, what's it hurt to have a pocket sized rangefinder? Accurately making a shot starts with knowing how far said target is. Range estimation is critical, but imperfect, even with optics. Knowing the difference between "it looks close enough" from "maybe I should crawl closer" can be much better done with ranging. Eyeballing can get you close, ranging gets you meat.

 

[etisll40]

The great thing about hunters is they are always trying to get better. It's a great sport and practically every one on here takes it serious. We all enjoy the hunt and making good shots, now we just have to bring someone along to gut and carry the meat back. I may buy a 4 wheeler this year! Dragging them out is a real chore sometimes. About the only thing that's not fun.

 

[meanmrmustard]

The great thing about hunters is they are always trying to get better. It's a great sport and practically every one on here takes it serious. We all enjoy the hunt and making good shots, now we just have to bring someone along to gut and carry the meat back. I may buy a 4 wheeler this year! Dragging them out is a real chore sometimes. About the only thing that's not fun.

Well, upside to the drag is that it keeps you in shape?

 

[Sami]

The great thing about hunters is they are always trying to get better. It's a great sport and practically every one on here takes it serious. We all enjoy the hunt and making good shots, now we just have to bring someone along to gut and carry the meat back. I may buy a 4 wheeler this year! Dragging them out is a real chore sometimes. About the only thing that's not fun.

What kind of a hunter doesn't cut his own meat?

Back home using an off-road vehicle to either transport weapons or for hunting purposes will get the meat, the vehicle and all the weapons confiscated and auctioned off. Takes out the people who are in it for just easy kills. No pain, no meat.

 

[Sami]

That was my point.

My point really was that if the shot isn't comfortable enough to take with ranging with a good scope (and reticle), I personally don't feel rangefinder is going to help you all that much. With long distance shots wind and target movement is the main enemy, not drop. You can't accurately predict neither one like you can with drop.

 

[meanmrmustard]

My point really was that if the shot isn't comfortable enough to take with ranging with a good scope (and reticle), I personally don't feel rangefinder is going to help you all that much. With long distance shots wind and target movement is the main enemy, not drop. You can't accurately predict neither one like you can with drop.

Can't predict drop when you don't know how far your target is.
I see your other points, and agree about wind, temperature, humidity, even the Earths rotation being able to throw your lead off target. But drop isn't any more predictable without knowing your dope. Wind deflection, just like drop, is amplified exponentially at farther ranges, so that too can be taken into account with a rangefinder. Knowing your round, your scope, the weather, the temperature, wind speed, and DISTANCE all are a factor. Ranging helps take ANY guess work out of a shot, regardless of how far you want to shoot. With the right gear, the know how, and patience to know when to pull the trigger, you can indeed make that long shot.

 

[Sami]

Can't predict drop when you don't know how far your target is.

True but you're still missing the point I was making.

Even if you know distance, predicting windage is still a questimate at best. Gravity has only slight differences between locations and is very close to 9.81 at all times so it can be considered a constant. Wind however is a variable that keeps changing, even during flight. Both the magnitude AND angle. So a little mistake in ranging is just a drop in the bucket and making that slight correction isn't going to make or break the kill shot. If it is then the shot should have not been taken in the first place.

And why carry a rangefinder when you can have one of these?

Welcome to Carl Zeiss Sports Optics, LLC

 

[Scot E]

If you are unsure of the shot when ranging with a good scope, I feel you shouldn't take the shot even if you can verify it with a rangefinder. What etis is saying is how most people feel about long range hunting in general, "too many variables", "move closer". That applies even if you know the distance.

Guys, not trying to pick a fight here, and I fully recognize I may be a bit grumpy today and on a bit of a soap box, but I really disagree with a number of the last few posts on this thread. Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent but I don't think so.

This is a LR hunting site, we really don't care what other people think about shooting LR. The reality is that LR hunters are extremely anal and demand near perfection in their equipment performance and personal shot execution. They have more knowledge and understanding of what their guns are capable of than any other group of the gun hunting public. We also practice more, pour over ballistic charts more, are more in tune with weather conditions, and take more care to complete the perfect shot than any other segment of the gun hunting world. And we practice all year long!! I honestly believe that true LR hunters, not wanna-bies, wound less animals and fill their freezers much more often than normal Joes that may snub their nose at our concept of hunting.

With all due respect, if it's your belief that shots shouldn't be taken even when ranges have been verified by a laser rangefinder because there are just too many variables and that the answer is just to move closer, then I am afraid you are on the wrong chat forum. Not only will you find almost nobody agreeing with you here but your premise is also completely false. Executing a LR shot is all about eliminating or accurately compensating for variables. And I again point out that I believe most true LR hunters do a far better job of preparation and therefore execution than the typical hunter. This equates to less wounded game which in my mind means we have a greater respect for the game we hunt compared to guys that just go out and shoot 2 sighter shots the day before their season opens.

Also, with practice a guy can become very good at ranging big game. How many of you guys saying it shouldn't be done have actually tried it and even more importantly practiced it a lot in order to become proficient? I personally only feel comfortable out to about 4-500 yards depending on the situation but that is a long ways and covers a large number of shots that may be taken during a hunting situation. Also, out to that distance all the variables of atmospheric conditions being talked about aren't a factor so there really aren't any extra variables to cause all kinds of supposed trouble.

Here is a classic story about when having a ranging reticle with the knowledge to use it can be a big advantage. A few years ago I was hunting one of my favorite mule deer spots. There was dense fog that was moving in and out of the area we were glassing. It would thin just enough to see deer on the hillside but there was no way to use a rangefinder. It simply wouldn't give accurate readings, and mostly wouldn't give readings at all. There was a deep canyon between us and the deer. If you have been in this situation you know how difficult it can be to judge distance. We all thought that the deer were feeding about 600 yards away. It was just really hard to see them even when the fog cleared and impossible when it set in. If we wouldn't have been able to range them with our reticle we would have simply passed a a very nice buck. But with the reticle it was very easy to determine that the buck was only 300 yards away. We were shocked but multiple verifications and taking large and small brisket measurements all came up with the same basic yardage. We shot that buck and made a perfect one shot kill. I would guess most guys in this situation would have either passed on the shot or would have shot completely over his back. There are a number of other stories I could give that give as examples. Suffice to say there are a lot of ways that having a reticle and understanding how to use it can be a real hunt saver.

I realize this site is becoming very popular and we have more and more guys signing up here all the time. But at the end of the day it is a LR hunting site period. If you don't LR range hunt or have a desire to learn how to do so then I would respectfully ask you find another site that better fits your style.


Rant Off!

Scot E.

 

[meanmrmustard]

True but you're still missing the point I was making.

Even if you know distance, predicting windage is still a questimate at best. Gravity has only slight differences between locations and is very close to 9.81 at all times so it can be considered a constant. Wind however is a variable that keeps changing, even during flight. Both the magnitude AND angle. So a little mistake in ranging is just a drop in the bucket and making that slight correction isn't going to make or break the kill shot. If it is then the shot should have not been taken in the first place.

And why carry a rangefinder when you can have one of these?

Welcome to Carl Zeiss Sports Optics, LLC

I'll have to find you the thread I found not too long ago about using your surroundings to estimate wind speed, I.e. Leaves, trees, dirt scattered in the wind. I'll find it for you. It's very intuitive, and I trust in the application. I'm not going to pass up EVERY shot, I'm going to maximize my success rate to the point of recognizable failure. If I can't make the shot, I'll use my gear and my brains to try to find another way. If it seems iffy or just plain undoable, I'll pass rather than muff the shot. Ranging, estimating wind speed, knowing your guns capabilities, and being patient work. I'll continue to use these.

If wind scared us that much, we wouldn't ever let a bullet go on any game. There is a difference between being cautious and
just plain not shooting...ever. Knowing distance, adjusting hold over and lead for windspeed and drop is plain easier with a known distance. "He who waits for no wind, no rain, and only broadside shots go home hungry". I'm putting a copyright on that statement.

And yes, I would like to have that. Just waiting on you to buy it for me.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Guys, not trying to pick a fight here, and I fully recognize I may be a bit grumpy today and on a bit of a soap box, but I really disagree with a number of the last few posts on this thread. Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent but I don't think so.

This is a LR hunting site, we really don't care what other people think about shooting LR. The reality is that LR hunters are extremely anal and demand near perfection in their equipment performance and personal shot execution. They have more knowledge and understanding of what their guns are capable of than any other group of the gun hunting public. We also practice more, pour over ballistic charts more, are more in tune with weather conditions, and take more care to complete the perfect shot than any other segment of the gun hunting world. And we practice all year long!! I honestly believe that true LR hunters, not wanna-bies, wound less animals and fill their freezers much more often than normal Joes that may snub their nose at our concept of hunting.

With all due respect, if it's your belief that shots shouldn't be taken even when ranges have been verified by a laser rangefinder because there are just too many variables and that the answer is just to move closer, then I am afraid you are on the wrong chat forum. Not only will you find almost nobody agreeing with you here but your premise is also completely false. Executing a LR shot is all about eliminating or accurately compensating for variables. And I again point out that I believe most true LR hunters do a far better job of preparation and therefore execution than the typical hunter. This equates to less wounded game which in my mind means we have a greater respect for the game we hunt compared to guys that just go out and shoot 2 sighter shots the day
before their season opens.

Also, with practice a guy can become very good at ranging big game. How many of you guys saying it shouldn't be done have actually tried it and even more importantly practiced it a lot in order to become proficient? I personally only feel comfortable out to about 4-500 yards depending on the situation but that is a long ways and covers a large number of shots that may be taken during a hunting situation. Also, out to that distance all the variables of atmospheric conditions being talked about aren't a factor so there really aren't any extra variables to cause all kinds of supposed trouble.

Here is a classic story about when having a ranging reticle with the knowledge to use it can be a big advantage. A few years ago I was hunting one of my favorite mule deer spots. There was dense fog that was moving in and out of the area we were glassing. It would thin just enough to see deer on the hillside but there was no way to use a rangefinder. It simply wouldn't give accurate readings, and mostly wouldn't give readings at all. There was a deep canyon between us and the deer. If you have been in this situation you know how difficult it can be to judge distance. We all thought that the deer were feeding about 600 yards away. It was just really hard to see them even when the fog cleared and impossible when it set in. If we wouldn't have been able to range them with our reticle we would have simply passed a a very nice buck. But with
the reticle it was very easy to determine that the buck was only 300 yards away. We were shocked but multiple verifications and taking large and small brisket measurements all came up with the same basic yardage. We shot that buck and made a perfect one shot kill. I would guess most guys in this situation would have either passed on the shot or would have shot completely over his back. There are a number of other stories I could give that give as examples. Suffice to say there are a lot of
ways that having a reticle and understanding how to use it can be a real hunt saver.

I realize this site is becoming very popular and we have more and more guys signing up here all the time. But at the end of the day it is a LR hunting site period. If you don't LR range hunt or have a desire to learn how to do so then I would respectfully ask you find another site that better fits your style.


Rant Off!

Scot E.

No argument. Don't see where anyone sees an argument. This IS an LR forum, and I prefer a range finder. If it were to fail (which it hasn't, even in fog), the I'd appreciate the MIL reticle, which I voted for. In respect to fellow members, I voted so I'll shut up on this topic.

Good day.

 

[Sami]

Guys, not trying to pick a fight here, and I fully recognize I may be a bit grumpy today and on a bit of a soap box, but I really disagree with a number of the last few posts on this thread. Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent but I don't think so.

No, you are actually misunderstanding the intent of my posts. I am not against long range hunting but believe that LR shooters should and DO TAKE a lot of care in picking their shots. If one is competent in range estimation using other than laser equipment and feels that the shot should not be taken, it is MY PERSONAL belief that it would not change the shot criteria whether the distance was measured with a reticle or laser.

The reality is that LR hunters are extremely anal and demand near perfection in their equipment performance and personal shot execution.

Scot, like you I'm not here to pick a fight, just have a discussion on the subject but this kind of favours the MRAD equipment. In your earlier post you were using IPHY as MOA calculation and that's kind of opposite of being anal LR shooter. Use a 10-base system and you will have LESS error margin.

I unfortunately don't get to do a lot of long range hunting, other than on small game so most of my shots are either misses or kills and hardly any wounded animals. FMJ through a goose is usually a kill. My military training was all about trajectory calculations and while we did get to use lasers most of the time they were only allowed to verify manual calculations. Things might have changed but I was taught to not rely on anything electronic. I do realize things are quite different between a battlefield and hunting grounds where on the latter you have a choice of not having to take a shot. What can I say, old habits die hard.

Again, all these are just my personal feelings and/or preferences. I am not against the use of a rangefinder but feel it should not be a deal breaker. I don't actually remember ever using it to verify range to game. If I use it, I use it like I did in the military, verify my calculations/estimates prior to starting hunting. One of the best ways to use it IMHO is to try to memorize the area where you are hunting. Maybe I am being anal here, I don't know but the intention is not to try to force my views on others.

 

[Scot E]

No, you are actually misunderstanding the intent of my posts. I am not against long range hunting but believe that LR shooters should and DO TAKE a lot of care in picking their shots. If one is competent in range estimation using other than laser equipment and feels that the shot should not be taken, it is MY PERSONAL belief that it would not change the shot criteria whether the distance was measured with a reticle or laser.

I am not sure how the above measures up to your last few posts but I will take you word for it and assume I am not following your point.

If you will go back and look, I voted for MIL. You can see it in my first post and on the poll. The comment you are referring to was me simply giving clarification that both MOA and MIL, and IPHY for that matter, can be used to determine range or the size of an object. There had been about 4 or 5 posts previously saying they voted for MIL because they liked the fact they could range with them. That comment isn't accurate so I pointed out that MIL wasn't the only one that would allow you to range.

Regarding the accuracy of the IPHY vs true MOA, at the distances we are talking about there simply isn't a need to worry about the error. I don't think there has been one guy on this thread that has commented that he is comfortable using a reticle to range much past 500 yards on big game. So we are talking about a .25 of an inch difference at 500 yards if the reticle is in IPHY instead of true MOA. Regarding the ranging formula, it may make a 10-20 yard error which equates to a 2-3 inch miss at most. I guess if you want to call me out on these errors that is fine. The reality though is that the IPHY formula is easier to remember and much easier for most people to do in their heads. And it is much easier and faster to back out the the 5% error after using the IPHY formula than it is to try and do the true MOA formula in your head. At least it is for me and the guys I shoot with.

Scot E.

 

[Sami]

I guess if you want to call me out on these errors that is fine.

No, I wasn't calling you out and I was worried it would come out that way but it just struck to be the opposite of being "anal". I know on the Snipers Hide many guys are very picky about the subject and using IPHY is against the "religion".

If one really was that way, calculating/estimating wind drift would require a computer and specialized software. First you would have to estimate wind magnitude and also angle for EACH section of the shooting lane. Then you would have to input in the statistical chance the wind will change and by how much. I personally don't feel 500 yards is a long range that requires precision calculations but once the range is 1000 yards, wind certainly isn't a constant value through the whole travel distance. This is going back to my earlier post about calculating drop being with constants (gravity) while wind and target movement were variables.

Pair that windage thing with the fact that many use a trajectory chart where wind angle is assumed to be 90 degrees. If you were serious, at least use a matrix... (Again, written/rambled with tongue in cheek...)

 

[ff6602]

No matter what calibur we choose, or bullet, powder, or gun, what makes the difference between kill shot and tracking is shot placement.
No one can shoot long range with out a lot of practice and knowing their equipment flawlessly.
A range finder puts the odds in our favor. There are alot of hunters that can't afford all of the best equipment. If a range finder isn't in your budget you probably shouldn't shoot beyound 300 yrds.
If your willing to spend money on ammuntion for practice, with the right scope ypu can range your quarry.
No matter what system you choose it all comes down to PRACTRICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE!!!!!!!gun)