What happened to the '06?

[Bart B]

What you should do is post picture what a Palma 308 rifle look like

I don't think I need to. Those shown in the link you posted are very good.

I thnk a lot of F-class folks use their NRA "any rifle" or "match rifle" to compete. They're stocked much like Palma rifles as well as a lot of F-class ones as well as being single shot ones except for the match rifles that need a 5-round magazine of somr sort.

 

[X-man]

I shoot with a guy that has a 30-06 Ackley that runs a very long throat and it certainly runs nicely...It dominates the 308W with heavy bullets running 200SMks at just under 2800fps.
With the Lapua brass, decent velocity, great accuracy, there are no flies on the combination.

Not my choice of bullet or cartridge, but hey...There are of of guys running a lot goofier combinations out there!
To be fair, I don't really like the 308 either.

 

[Bart B]

I shoot with a guy that has a 30-06 Ackley that runs a very long throat and it certainly runs nicely...It dominates the 308W with heavy bullets running 200SMks at just under 2800fps.

So does any cartridge shooting a given 30 caliber bullet faster (if that's your definitation of "dominates") than a .308 does.

The .30-.50BMG (below, with 5.56 NATO round for comparison) dominates them all and dwarfs the .30-06 Ackley, now, doesn't it?

How 'bout a .30-40 Bofors; a 40mm Bofors heavy AA machine gun round necked down to 30 caliber shooting 1000 grain 6 inch long bullets? You could use three kernels of powder used for 16" battleship guns; they're about the size of .410 gauge revolver cylinders. Would be the most overbore cartridge in history. But very efficient; it would only use 3 kernels of powder compared to about a thousand or more in a .308 case.

OK, your turn in this (about to get stupid "mine's bigger than yours") issue.

 

[X-man]

I'll raise your 50BMG/308 with a 20mm Vulacnator/308.5!
The "dominates" was just for you buddy!

Fish on!


Last year I traveled a long way to a remote 1k yard range where I was beaten by a local that knew his range/quirks extremely well...With a 223!
You know what they say right!

 

[elkaholic]

Hey everyone, I've been doing a lot of reading on here the past few days, and one thing I've come to notice is that there isn't much talk about the 30-06. Is the great grandfather of modern day long range cartridges dying off? Ill be getting my lathe very soon and one of the first things I want to do on it is build a precision '06. It seems like its the perfect balance between the .308 and .300wm. My hopes are to be able to accurately engage out to 1000-1200 meters, I want it bigger than a .308 and I don't really want a magnum. Am I just not seeing something in these newer calibers that many of you are building on, or is the '06 still a good option for what I want?

Thanks,
Clint

Hi Clint! Nothing wrong with an '06 and what you have in mind. Here is some food for thought. You said you weren't interested in a magnum but want long range performance. I have a reamer for a 300 Sherman which may be just the ticket. It has an '06 head size and the parent is the .270W. The case is redesigned to hold approx. 11% more powder and give good performance, case, and barrel life. I was shooting 190 grain bullets at 3050' with accuracy in a 28" barrel. This is near 300 WM performance with about 13 grains less powder. Here is a pic compared to a std. '06. You don't have to modify anything on an '06 but the chamber......Rich

 

[Bart B]

I was shooting 190 grain bullets at 3050' with accuracy in a 28" barrel. This is near 300 WM performance with about 13 grains less powder.

That's the same speed 190's leave a 28" .300 Win Mag barrel at normal peak presures.

 

[elkaholic]

That's the same speed 190's leave a 28" .300 Win Mag barrel at normal peak presures.

Wouldn't be surprised! I've fired them at 3100', but that is definitely too hot. 3000' is easy........Rich

 

[ctbreitwieser]

Hi Clint! Nothing wrong with an '06 and what you have in mind. Here is some food for thought. You said you weren't interested in a magnum but want long range performance. I have a reamer for a 300 Sherman which may be just the ticket. It has an '06 head size and the parent is the .270W. The case is redesigned to hold approx. 11% more powder and give good performance, case, and barrel life. I was shooting 190 grain bullets at 3050' with accuracy in a 28" barrel. This is near 300 WM performance with about 13 grains less powder. Here is a pic compared to a std. '06. You don't have to modify anything on an '06 but the chamber......RichView attachment 21556

Thanks for that info Rich. Definitely looks like something Id be interested in. How does the 300 Sherman compare to an '06 AI? And how easy is it to get reloading dies for the Sherman? Why is the parent case a .270 instead of an '06? Im not real familiar with the .270, its just never been a round that grabbed my attention.

 

[Bart B]

Can someone explain how a smaller case burning less powder push the came caliber and weight bullet out as fast as a bigger case with more powder does without doing so with a lot more peak pressure?

About 70 grains of powder in a .300 Win Mag will push a 190 grain grain bullet out of a 28" barrel at about 3050 fps with about 64K psi (54K cup) peak pressure.

The .300 Sherman's claimed to shoot the same bullet out at 3050 fps in a smaller case holding about 13 grains less powder (57 grains?). The only thing I can think of that will make this happen is a huge increase in peak pressure over the .300 Win Mag.

There is no free lunch (velocity increase?) with cartridges. There has to be something magical about the .300 Sherman's performance virtually equalling the .300 Win Mag with less powder.

 

[elkaholic]

Can someone explain how a smaller case burning less powder push the came caliber and weight bullet out as fast as a bigger case with more powder does without doing so with a lot more peak pressure?

About 70 grains of powder in a .300 Win Mag will push a 190 grain grain bullet out of a 28" barrel at about 3050 fps with about 64K psi (54K cup) peak pressure.

The .300 Sherman's claimed to shoot the same bullet out at 3050 fps in a smaller case holding about 13 grains less powder (57 grains?). The only thing I can think of that will make this happen is a huge increase in peak pressure over the .300 Win Mag.

There is no free lunch (velocity increase?) with cartridges. There has to be something magical about the .300 Sherman's performance virtually equalling the .300 Win Mag with less powder.

"
Bart.....I think I can explain that. It probably "is" reaching higher pressure to get equal velocity with the 300WM! All I can tell you is that is what it reaches. Cases at 3050 are probably good for only 5 firings, but quite a bit more at 3000'. I think the straight case wall and 40 degree shoulder help handle more pressure, which seems to be true in all the Sherman cases. Hope this helps.......Rich

 

[elkaholic]

Thanks for that info Rich. Definitely looks like something Id be interested in. How does the 300 Sherman compare to an '06 AI? And how easy is it to get reloading dies for the Sherman? Why is the parent case a .270 instead of an '06? Im not real familiar with the .270, its just never been a round that grabbed my attention.

The 300 Sherman will outperform the A.I. for the same reason Bart mentioned. It has more capacity. The .270 case is simply a .046" longer version of an '06 that is necked to .277" I used it to gain the extra capacity over the A.I. and still have a good neck length. You can also use the .280 or .280 A.I. case to form the Sherman which I have done. This gives you a lot of brass choices and availability. Dies are available through Hornady, but I think I will start using Whidden. At any rate, I can get them for you.......Rich
p.s. I have even used 6.5x65 RWS brass. The 64 mm Euro brass could also be used I suppose.....

 

[Bart B]

It probably "is" reaching higher pressure to get equal velocity with the 300WM!

I agree. Peak pressure's probably up to or higher than proof load levels; especially when only 5 loads per case is all you get. One can get 30 or more reloads per .30-06 of .270 case with proper resizing tools/techniques and safe max pressures.

I have never thought that cartridge performance comparisons are realistic when a commercial cartridge at normal, safe SAAMI maximum pressures versus a lesser capacity wildcat round with the same bullet requires unsafe way too high pressures to equal it. When one tilts the otherwise level playing field to reach their agenda, then of course their side of the issue will appear to the ignorant that it's a better way to go. Such is the marketing tactics of snake oil peddlers over a century ago.

Rich, had you put some actual pressure numbers or info to that effect in your .300 Sherman information, that would have helped. At least it would make visible the compromises one has to make when using smaller capacity cartridges to equal the performance of larger ones.

ctbreitwieser, now you get to decide what's best for your objectives and well being. You get to decide the margin of safety you want to live (shoot?) with.

 

[X-man]

"
Bart.....I think I can explain that. It probably "is" reaching higher pressure to get equal velocity with the 300WM! All I can tell you is that is what it reaches. Cases at 3050 are probably good for only 5 firings, but quite a bit more at 3000'. I think the straight case wall and 40 degree shoulder help handle more pressure, which seems to be true in all the Sherman cases. Hope this helps.......Rich

You have to be running some pretty scary pressure to get that velocity.
I have pressure testing equipment that reads up to 80,0000 psi.....you are very likely be above that.
Case shape has nothing to do with the cases ability to handle pressure. Think of the case as a balloon...the pressure is everywhere inside the case and will all escape from the weakest point.

You do realize those 2 tiny locking lugs are holding back 15,000 pounds or more (likely) right? This is strictly bolt face thrust....What do you think will happen if you get cleaning oil in the chamber?
If I told you to climb under 2 diesel pick ups and a Honda Civic stacked end on end while I held them up with your little bolt lugs you would rightly tell me to take a flying leap.

Yet you trust your life to those little lugs because you can't see the forces trying to kill you?
Heads up bro!

 

[elkaholic]

I don't feel at all unsafe with the pressure I'm running, but I understand what you are saying. I have probably run above saami in std. cartridges over the years as well. That being said, I don't believe that ALL of the gain is due to pressure alone. As you wisely stated, making up 13 grains is physically impossible with equal pressure. I am convinced that PART of the gain is because of the case design which will allow running higher pressure. If it was due to pressure alone, the case would come unglued before you reached near 300 WM performance. Also, throating plays a role , as I'm sure you realize.....Rich