Single digit E.S. dont mean squat.

[Barehandlineman11]

Sure but isn't the es the measure of velocity not impact on target? Ever have a ladder shoot same or very close poi even though the velocity is different?

Thats for a given powder charge and your looking for flat spot in the node. Typically the impacts and velocity are close. Meaning you have a good charge where its not typically sensitive. There's exceptions to everything but more then likely those exceptions wont repeat.

 

[dfanonymous]

Sure but isn't the es the measure of velocity not impact on target? Ever have a ladder shoot same or very close poi even though the velocity is different?

Yes it is. Now take that impact concept and apply it to MV by applying the median. As you said, crap in crap out, so due diligence.

..but that doesn't mean take out numbers because you don't like them…that's not the same thing. When talking velocity, if I have one that is 200 fps off…I messed something up. In example.

Perfect point about the ladder. Where we typically do that ladder test, you're right. We can have good groups by various degrees of ES/SDs.
As you go further back you're shooting (closer to transonic,) is where you really will see the effects in measurable verticals dispersion because of MV ES. In group size. Especially smaller numbers.

 

[Culpeper]

Mean radius gets more symmetrical to the center of the group as the number of shots increase. But that is skewing the results. It is the preferred method for calculating marksmanship. But it also goes back to shooting repeatable small three shot groups without having to know why with a bunch of complex formulas.

Measuring Groups with Extreme Spread Vs. Mean Radius - AmmoMan School of Guns Blog

We use extreme spread to measure groups because it's quick and easy to calculate. However, that's not how the military does it: They use mean radius. Let's see why.

www.ammoman.com

 

[L.Sherm]

. Plain old English man. You have to understand the terms you're using.

Go tell that to some record BR shooters.

 

[Equalizer]

Maybe they flunked English class

And I refuse to be cowed by peer review.

 

[ButterBean]

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I hope I never hit a point in loading and shooting, or anything else, that leaves me never asking questions and sharing experience for the sake of learning something useful and new. Or possibly helping someone do the same.
There seems to be some members here that simply prowl these pages to override, belittle and TRY to prove others wrong.
Sadly.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Preaching to the choir…

Wow, I don't think I have EVER added so many to my ignore list…amazing.

 

[ButterBean]

Preaching to the choir…

Wow, I don't think I have EVER added so many to my ignore list…amazing.

And they just come out of the woodwork and start preaching,

 

[kgunz11]

I spend a lot of time shooting longer ranges than most. I don't touch the chrono until load development is finished nowadays. I use to use it for every round fired and I've spent a good deal of money on them. I have a PVM-21, Magnetospeed V3, Labradar, and Andi-X. I've learned through experience that a good chrono number doesn't make a good load. I've found more times than not that accuracy trumps. I do my load development at 100 yards, then confirm at 600 yards and 1000 yards. I've tested good chrono numbers against bad, and the short range accuracy wins every single time. Trust the target. People give velocity more credence than it deserves. There's much that can be said about Optimal Barrel Timing, Optimal Charge Weight, and their effect on barrel whip and bullet exit, but I don't have time to type it all out here.

 

[Equalizer]

@L.Sherm.

I apologize for squabbling over terms. We both agree that it all influences the final outcome. Have a good day.

 

[BrentM]

Oh geesh I was ignoring this post until just now...... and now I wish I had not just for the entertainment factor alone. Nice work

 

[Culpeper]

Oh geesh I was ignoring this post until just now...... and now I wish I had not just for the entertainment factor alone. Nice work

Lives are ruined and it's still available.

 

[Mark37082]

Isn't this science experiment (reloading) great? One thing I've learned is there are always going to be scientists/reloaders that will come to a conclusion and profess with absolute authority they have the answer. Very few of these conclusions survive the rigorous and critical challenges from others. Some take great pleasure in discrediting other's thoughts and opinions. Some just seek to understand the context and basis of the opinion. I have yet to put anyone on the ignore list. I have reasonable confidence that I can discern what will be important to me in this great hobby. Plus, I just bought a new Labradar, and I'm going to use it.