Single digit E.S. dont mean squat.

[Dirtrax]

But sometimes the target, "don't mean nothin'"...cause you can not repeat it...so it don't mean nothin". Been there.
But when it can be done "repeatedly", and get smaller groups, or bounce a pop can at 1000 yds, before the wind changes, with not much vertical at long range,... "repeatedly"...that target means something. A good, usable load, with single digit S/D.
I always try for low S/D...do not like double digit S/D, especially past 10...
Helped me get 2 bullets into the same enlarged hole at 1000yds, for a 3 shot group of 1.516 inches ... once...never put 2 into one hole again at 1000yds to 1400yds, in the 17,000 match 308 rds fired 25 yrs ago...low S/D mattered if ya to get half MOA out to 1400yds, especially with the lowly 308Win.

And how much did that, or those rifles weigh? Much of the exploits of those that shoot itty bitty groups at long ranges probably can't pack that rifle over the next ridge. Nor can they carry the front rests and rear bags that are so meticulously arranged on a bench. I appreciate the knowledge y'all pass along but cringe at the condemnation spewed towards those that are speaking of something quite different. No bueno

 

[skipglo]

I forgot to add the target, 665 yards

Now THAT MAKES A SIZEABLE DIFFERENCE! A little note certainly worthy of mention!!!. You do know Sherm....there's a little EDIT BUTTON! When I first looked at that group and knowing the man you are...my first thought was....They just legalized Marijuana in your State too!!!!

 

[skipglo]

Gibberish, do you think we just shoot one 3 shot group on a whim and caller good? the target means everything, and you do know this is Long Range Hunting not Bench Rest Central

Nothing wrong with taking a Rest on a Bench Bean.....it's just that you don't come across that many of them ( or any for that matter) where I hunt!

 

[Troutslayer2]

I will only believe that single digit es exists if I see it, in person, from one of the dime a dozen single digit es rifles I have read about on the internets. By all means invite me to quietly sit by and watch your rifle shoot single digit es and afterwards I will buy you a beer.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Short fat cases with high load density and uniform neck tension are the more likely culprits id think.?.
My 7SS is the only one of my rifles I've had do that before.
My buddies Auto Trickler doesn't hurt either.

 

[MagnumManiac]

That ES of 100 fps will turn into a big vertical dispersion at 600 yds. You can shoot it or just run it through a ballistic calculator to see how much. The result will be the same either way other than wind effect.

Wow!
Who CARES!
The load IS for 100mtr shooting, was giving AN EXAMPLE of how ES is NOT the be all, end all of an accurate load.
I don't even look at chronograph results before a load is chosen…

 

[44-40]

And how much did that, or those rifles weigh? Much of the exploits of those that shoot itty bitty groups at long ranges probably can't pack that rifle over the next ridge. Nor can they carry the front rests and rear bags that are so meticulously arranged on a bench. I appreciate the knowledge y'all pass along but cringe at the condemnation spewed towards those that are speaking of something quite different. No bueno

Not a round of the 17,000 were fired from a bench...none...the rifle was about 8.5 Lbs easily portable, sniper craft for field shooting squirrels at 500 to past 1000 yds.I belonged to the Varmint Hunters Club, and shot from the prone position as did many others. Some trying for 2 and 3 thousand yards had portable shooting benches as did the few who were trying the 50BMG for 4800 yds ..I later bought a 50BMG for squirrels, and its heavy.
25 yrs ago none of the new magnums existed and bullets were not up to the BC of today's.
So a fairly light Alum bedding block with pillars, stock, skim bedded, a 2 Oz Jewell trigger, A light USMC 10 X Leupold M3 Mk4 mil dot ultra fine crosshairs scope with mil dot reticle and MOA turrents, learn to convert mils to moa on the fly. A Schilen select match, first barrel fulted. The next group of barrels unfluted, I have a Bridgeport mill to flute them and chamber all the barrels in my lathe, with a reamer for Lapua brass. Bartlein didn't exist. Tony Boyer was using Schilen, at the time, and the USMC snipers manual, Precision Shooting Mag...and real snipers influenced me on how I was going to going to proceed. And I won a local match against the Navy sniper team, way back in about 1974 when they allowed civilians to compete.
I quit the local range to and concentrated on 1000yds to 1400 yds..after awhile anything under 800 was totally boring. And it was all done with only a lazer range finder, and a rifle shooting on my belly, with a lowly 308 Win, inferior 155 Lapua bullets, Lapua brass and Varget a new powder that gave me single digit S/ D and great accuracy, even in very high rd count barrels...smell the steel burning, keep shooting, when your on. A heavy practice schedule, adverse weather and difficult high winds a learning experience. I already been there accomplished everything I set out to do. Got bored with it...nothing else I want to accomplish with a rifle. Except how to improve on certain cartridges, out of curiosity, and what if...the guy who works building rifle actions now in Montana, used to work with me as a young man, in the CNC milling dept, and begin his new career shooting with me, in the mountains, before completing in PRS matches, and building famous rifle actions. I teach what I know, from field experience, modify it for your use...some things are subject to change...but low S/D is very important in a field load with distance. Hitting a target once, or one small group, or one hit in 63 tries don't show me much. I was shooting LR long before it was popular. Now everyone is an expert with thousands of dollars worth of gadgetry & equipment... my shooting buddy was a trophy type hunter ...always trying to get me to kill an antelope past 800 yds as it was rather easy endeavor at the time, but I refused, one is I just can't eat the sagegoat meat...it's worse than deer and elk...bear is horrible too. Long range is for varmints, ya get to shoot alot. Hunting big game, one and your done, plus the real punishment, skinning, packing, butchering, and finally ...eating...never acquired a taste for any of it. And I bow hunted for many years, where ya hear the broad head break the ribs, deer and elk within a few feet , terror and panic and even screams, air and blood blowing out of the lungs. Killing up close and personal...how it should be, so you know what you've done..How do you feel about that?
Much easier the farther you are removed from the scene.... the snipers bad reputation of yrs gone by.
Geez even David Tubb the king of 2 mile has a chronograph bayonet mounted to the rifle during the match competition, at two miles...and brags about how consistent and how low his S/D s are for his X33 or X37. Plus he's connecting with the target, at extreme range. Just things to consider.
Same with the Australian team on video factory Rem 700 308 3200 yd 2 hits of 10 tries. but they shot a load over the chronograph with very low S/D s.

 

[ButterBean]

Not a round of the 17,000 were fired from a bench...none...the rifle was about 8.5 Lbs easily portable, sniper craft for field shooting squirrels at 500 to past 1000 yds.I belonged to the Varmint Hunters Club, and shot from the prone position as did many others. Some trying for 2 and 3 thousand yards had portable shooting benches as did the few who were trying the 50BMG for 4800 yds ..I later bought a 50BMG for squirrels, and its heavy.
25 yrs ago none of the new magnums existed and bullets were not up to the BC of today's.
So a fairly light Alum bedding block with pillars, stock, skim bedded, a 2 Oz Jewell trigger, A light USMC 10 X Leupold M3 Mk4 mil dot ultra fine crosshairs scope with mil dot reticle and MOA turrents, learn to convert mils to moa on the fly. A Schilen select match, first barrel fulted. The next group of barrels unfluted, I have a Bridgeport mill to flute them and chamber all the barrels in my lathe, with a reamer for Lapua brass. Bartlein didn't exist. Tony Boyer was using Schilen, at the time, and the USMC snipers manual, Precision Shooting Mag...and real snipers influenced me on how I was going to going to proceed. And I won a local match against the Navy sniper team, way back in about 1974 when they allowed civilians to compete.
I quit the local range to and concentrated on 1000yds to 1400 yds..after awhile anything under 800 was totally boring. And it was all done with only a lazer range finder, and a rifle shooting on my belly, with a lowly 308 Win, inferior 155 Lapua bullets, Lapua brass and Varget a new powder that gave me single digit S/ D and great accuracy, even in very high rd count barrels...smell the steel burning, keep shooting, when your on. A heavy practice schedule, adverse weather and difficult high winds a learning experience. I already been there accomplished everything I set out to do. Got bored with it...nothing else I want to accomplish with a rifle. Except how to improve on certain cartridges, out of curiosity, and what if...the guy who works building rifle actions now in Montana, used to work with me as a young man, in the CNC milling dept, and begin his new career shooting with me, in the mountains, before completing in PRS matches, and building famous rifle actions. I teach what I know, from field experience, modify it for your use...some things are subject to change...but low S/D is very important in a field load with distance. Hitting a target once, or one small group, or one hit in 63 tries don't show me much. I was shooting LR long before it was popular. Now everyone is an expert with thousands of dollars worth of gadgetry & equipment... my shooting buddy was a trophy type hunter ...always trying to get me to kill an antelope past 800 yds as it was rather easy endeavor at the time, but I refused, one is I just can't eat the sagegoat meat...it's worse than deer and elk...bear is horrible too. Long range is for varmints, ya get to shoot alot. Hunting big game, one and your done, plus the real punishment, skinning, packing, butchering, and finally ...eating...never acquired a taste for any of it. And I bow hunted for many years, where ya hear the broad head break the ribs, deer and elk within a few feet , terror and panic and even screams, air and blood blowing out of the lungs. Killing up close and personal...how it should be, so you know what you've done..How do you feel about that?
Much easier the farther you are removed from the scene.... the snipers bad reputation of yrs gone by.
Geez even David Tubb the king of 2 mile has a chronograph bayonet mounted to the rifle during the match competition, at two miles...and brags about how consistent and how low his S/D s are for his X33 or X37. Plus he's connecting with the target, at extreme range. Just things to consider.
Same with the Australian team on video factory Rem 700 308 3200 yd 2 hits of 10 tries. but they shot a load over the chronograph with very low S/D s.

 

[2buffalo]

Not a round of the 17,000 were fired from a bench...none...the rifle was about 8.5 Lbs easily portable, sniper craft for field shooting squirrels at 500 to past 1000 yds.I belonged to the Varmint Hunters Club, and shot from the prone position as did many others. Some trying for 2 and 3 thousand yards had portable shooting benches as did the few who were trying the 50BMG for 4800 yds ..I later bought a 50BMG for squirrels, and its heavy.
25 yrs ago none of the new magnums existed and bullets were not up to the BC of today's.
So a fairly light Alum bedding block with pillars, stock, skim bedded, a 2 Oz Jewell trigger, A light USMC 10 X Leupold M3 Mk4 mil dot ultra fine crosshairs scope with mil dot reticle and MOA turrents, learn to convert mils to moa on the fly. A Schilen select match, first barrel fulted. The next group of barrels unfluted, I have a Bridgeport mill to flute them and chamber all the barrels in my lathe, with a reamer for Lapua brass. Bartlein didn't exist. Tony Boyer was using Schilen, at the time, and the USMC snipers manual, Precision Shooting Mag...and real snipers influenced me on how I was going to going to proceed. And I won a local match against the Navy sniper team, way back in about 1974 when they allowed civilians to compete.
I quit the local range to and concentrated on 1000yds to 1400 yds..after awhile anything under 800 was totally boring. And it was all done with only a lazer range finder, and a rifle shooting on my belly, with a lowly 308 Win, inferior 155 Lapua bullets, Lapua brass and Varget a new powder that gave me single digit S/ D and great accuracy, even in very high rd count barrels...smell the steel burning, keep shooting, when your on. A heavy practice schedule, adverse weather and difficult high winds a learning experience. I already been there accomplished everything I set out to do. Got bored with it...nothing else I want to accomplish with a rifle. Except how to improve on certain cartridges, out of curiosity, and what if...the guy who works building rifle actions now in Montana, used to work with me as a young man, in the CNC milling dept, and begin his new career shooting with me, in the mountains, before completing in PRS matches, and building famous rifle actions. I teach what I know, from field experience, modify it for your use...some things are subject to change...but low S/D is very important in a field load with distance. Hitting a target once, or one small group, or one hit in 63 tries don't show me much. I was shooting LR long before it was popular. Now everyone is an expert with thousands of dollars worth of gadgetry & equipment... my shooting buddy was a trophy type hunter ...always trying to get me to kill an antelope past 800 yds as it was rather easy endeavor at the time, but I refused, one is I just can't eat the sagegoat meat...it's worse than deer and elk...bear is horrible too. Long range is for varmints, ya get to shoot alot. Hunting big game, one and your done, plus the real punishment, skinning, packing, butchering, and finally ...eating...never acquired a taste for any of it. And I bow hunted for many years, where ya hear the broad head break the ribs, deer and elk within a few feet , terror and panic and even screams, air and blood blowing out of the lungs. Killing up close and personal...how it should be, so you know what you've done..How do you feel about that?
Much easier the farther you are removed from the scene.... the snipers bad reputation of yrs gone by.
Geez even David Tubb the king of 2 mile has a chronograph bayonet mounted to the rifle during the match competition, at two miles...and brags about how consistent and how low his S/D s are for his X33 or X37. Plus he's connecting with the target, at extreme range. Just things to consider.
Same with the Australian team on video factory Rem 700 308 3200 yd 2 hits of 10 tries. but they shot a load over the chronograph with very low S/D s.

 

[SSG Graybush]

A smart guy on the forum told me recently that even though ES can be very tight sometime, you still may find yourself outside of good harmonic balance.
satisfied my curiosity.

just because you shot one target that's a horizontal pattern with a es of 21 means nothing.

 

[SSG Graybush]

Is this supposed to be funny…

no, it was funny

 

[Culpeper]

Like sand in an hour glass these are the days of our lives.

 

[Culpeper]

no, it was funny

That got you on his ignore list. I'm pretty sure he won't see my post so we're good.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

just because you shot one target that's a horizontal pattern with a es of 21 means nothing.

I'm well aware of impact patterns and what they suggest, and how to tweak them. And the need for them to repeat.
And 21 isn't a tight ES here. Decent but not tight.
salute.