Side Arm for Grizzly Country

[FEENIX]

 

[VLD Pilot]

Never seen those failures in person, and not worried about that type of failure.

Never seen these these either, and not afraid of it either. If it's your time it's your time.
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But what I have seen multiple times and what I'd be afraid of is
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*not about Glocks, I've seen it in many semi auto

Regarding large revolvers and bullet penetration on large animals...,
I just checked with a buddy with the pertinent experiences.
He shot a bull moose in the butt cheek with a 300gr Freedom Arms bullet from his .454 Casull. The bullet exited the front of the bull at the neck/shoulder junction. Muzzle velocity was ~1,500fps.

He was also present when his son shot a bull moose two times with a 300gr Hornady MagTip bullet. Bull was about 60yds distant. MV close to 1,700fps. Both shots were frontal quartering shots. Bullets entered front shoulder, one on each side. Each bullet exited the rear hams on the opposite sides.
Neither of these two bullets expand very much, if at all, at those impact velocities. Bullets penetrated 6 1/2 feet of body length, and still punched through the hide.
These are the best examples I can cite. At least 6 1/2' body penetration. Our Alaskan bull moose are large bodied. The Alaskan Yukon variety.

It's likely a bullet entering the chest of a large brown bear, on a frontal shot, will exit the bear's butt.

On western grizzlies, a fair bit shorter body length than our moose, a guy should expect full length penetration. A frontal shot in their chest could break a rear leg. A shot in their butt could break a front leg/shoulder.

As interesting and controversial as this thread has been, it just turned the corner and went in the crapper. Now apparently with these Big Bore revolvers, it's ok to shoot a Moose in its Butt Cheek and due to having so much power, the bullet makes it thru the entire animal and thru all the vitals. The one place I'd never shoot a Moose with a pistol. Gut shots are probably another spot for good shot placement since those magical pistols can't fail. I must have missed the data on the newest bullets available that can be remotely controlled to find the vitals regardless of where you hit an animal. Sounds like we have a new name for these incredible fail proof, super guns. Bigmoors. The long lost big brother to the Creedmoor's. There's nothing they can't do. There's no other options and pointing out facts that these guns are prone to failures just as all guns are seem to be denied by all the fact finders that NEVER had an issue with there's. If there ever has been an issue, it's not the guns fault, it's user error and of course none of the guys using them here (or most) have ever caused one. Yep, sounds like 51 pages will have to be it for me. The BS is climbing. For the realists who's posts I've read and seem to make sense and have real fact, I've enjoyed your input. For those who's Bigmoor pistols NEVER fail, I hope that luck keeps working for you. Seems your the only ones that never have issues.

 

[VLD Pilot]

This won't mean a thing to the haters. They don't want those facts on that cartridge. They make up there own facts that fit there opinions. The only facts they like, are the ones they put in print here. They deny the real facts on others choices in bear defense pistols if it's not a Bigmoor.

 

[Pdvdh]

As interesting and controversial as this thread has been, it just turned the corner and went in the crapper. Now apparently with these Big Bore revolvers, it's ok to shoot a Moose in its Butt Cheek and due to having so much power, the bullet makes it thru the entire animal and thru all the vitals. The one place I'd never shoot a Moose with a pistol. Gut shots are probably another spot for good shot placement since those magical pistols can't fail. I must have missed the data on the newest bullets available that can be remotely controlled to find the vitals regardless of where you hit an animal. Sounds like we have a new name for these incredible fail proof, super guns. Bigmoors. The long lost big brother to the Creedmoor's. There's nothing they can't do. There's no other options and pointing out facts that these guns are prone to failures just as all guns are seem to be denied by all the fact finders that NEVER had an issue with there's. If there ever has been an issue, it's not the guns fault, it's user error and of course none of the guys using them here (or most) have ever caused one. Yep, sounds like 51 pages will have to be it for me. The BS is climbing. For the realists who's posts I've read and seem to make sense and have real fact, I've enjoyed your input. For those who's Bigmoor pistols NEVER fail, I hope that luck keeps working for you. Seems your the only ones that never have issues.

With all your 10mm experience, I had hoped you could you might provide penetration data. Not to be...
When a moose or any other game animal has been hit and is headed away, do you wait for the perfect shot profile? If in a tussle with a bear are you gonna wait for the perfect shot profile? Sorry to have hurt your feelings. If it was the shot in the butt cheek that did it, probably good that you sit it out.

Again, best wishes with your 10mm.

 

[levers4life]

I don't live in bear country nor have I hunted with brown bears. But I do shoot a lot of big bore revolvers. I have locked up several wheel guns with hot loads. They can fail. Mostly, I've had double actions lock up (Smith is prone to this), although it can happen with heavy frame singles too. I'm still of the mind that revolvers are less prone to failure than autos.....but. Be careful, know your gun, know your load, practice.
My personal choice would be 4 5/8" Ruger BH in 45 Colt. I can drive a 265gr Keith hard cast bullet through a 10" cypress log and I have yet to lock it up. But, I'm old skool.....
Be safe, Happy hunting, Merry Christmas!

 

[Pdvdh]

Used to own one of those Ruger BHs in the 45LC, in the mid-70s. Just as potent as the 44Mag with handloaded ammo.
Primary reason I prefer double actions for bear, I can unload them with one hand, in a jam.

 

[VLD Pilot]

No hurt feelings. It's nothing personal. After reading your opinions on the subject, it wouldn't matter what data I provided. It's still wouldn't substantiate the 10mm pistol to be an adequate defense round for bears. I could tell you I shot a 360 lb boar hog in the frontal chest with a 200 grain BB Hardcast bullet where it exited the boar next to his scrotom. No bullet recovery. Several deer with some bullet recovery. One bear (black) at 30 yards with a 155 Corbon DPX and it exited both shoulders. No recovery. All fast effective kills with all animals recovered within 15 yards of being shot. Several other kills as well with similar results. Would that matter to someone that believes revolvers NEVER fail but semi's do. What's the purpose ? I could send pics all day long of revolver failures regardless of user error or pistol failure. Still a failure that could end up in a fatal bear attack. Stove pipes from semi auto's isn't a pistol problem either. It's from poor shooting form or limp wrist syndrome. There's always excuses for failures. Do they really matter ? The fact that one failed is all that matters and they BOTH do. That's been proven hundreds of times. We could argue that semi auto's are used in competition much more than revolvers because of speed of use. Power isn't a factor but speed and accuracy are, that's Point #1 on use for defense. Point #2 Could argue size and packability if the semi auto. Point #3 again could argue the controllability/shootability. Point#4 would be penetration. Even having less bullet weight and diameter, the .40 caliber hardcast bullets penetrate deeper even than the bullets from the pistols with 30-40% more energy and velocity in many cases. Definitely as deep in other cases. These facts still wouldn't change your opinions on the 10mm being an adequate bear defense round. I've read 51 pages of 2-3 members running a bone up the backside of the 10mm users opinions. I'd say giving any further opinions let alone facts on this subject is a waste of time. What I can say that is fact and printed and spoken about in many publications is that there are endless cases where Alaskan and Western State Bear guides have dropped using Big Bore pistols as their defense choice and replaced it with 10mm Glocks. This isn't debatable, it's a plain fact. In the end as I have said, it's a choice. One based on confidence and ability. After talking to a couple buddies that guide in Alaska, my choice is clear, proven and sound. Sounds like yours is as well. Agree to disagree is where that puts us. I don't agree that big wheel guns are inferior but don't believe they are superior. It's up to the user to make that decision for what they prefer.

 

[memtb]

As interesting and controversial as this thread has been, it just turned the corner and went in the crapper. Now apparently with these Big Bore revolvers, it's ok to shoot a Moose in its Butt Cheek and due to having so much power, the bullet makes it thru the entire animal and thru all the vitals. The one place I'd never shoot a Moose with a pistol. Gut shots are probably another spot for good shot placement since those magical pistols can't fail. I must have missed the data on the newest bullets available that can be remotely controlled to find the vitals regardless of where you hit an animal. Sounds like we have a new name for these incredible fail proof, super guns. Bigmoors. The long lost big brother to the Creedmoor's. There's nothing they can't do. There's no other options and pointing out facts that these guns are prone to failures just as all guns are seem to be denied by all the fact finders that NEVER had an issue with there's. If there ever has been an issue, it's not the guns fault, it's user error and of course none of the guys using them here (or most) have ever caused one. Yep, sounds like 51 pages will have to be it for me. The BS is climbing. For the realists who's posts I've read and seem to make sense and have real fact, I've enjoyed your input. For those who's Bigmoor pistols NEVER fail, I hope that luck keeps working for you. Seems your the only ones that never have issues.

Wow.....how about a big dose self-righteous, indignant chest beating! Bullet placement..... right or wrong, ethical or not has zero to do with the conversation pertaining to potential bullet performance on large, heavy bones, thick muscled animals.

Perhaps we can start a 50+ page thread on hunter ethics! memtb

 

[VLD Pilot]

Probably not a good idea !

 

[FEENIX]

This won't mean a thing to the haters. They don't want those facts on that cartridge. They make up there own facts that fit there opinions. The only facts they like, are the ones they put in print here. They deny the real facts on others choices in bear defense pistols if it's not a Bigmoor.

Agreed!

 

[DirectDrive]

You can have your 10mm or your big bore revolver and brag about it all day long and for 50 some pages.
But at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself...
"Will I be able to get my favorite handgun deployed in time ?
"Then will I have the courage to stand in the pocket and deliver accurate fire on a charging Grizzly ?

That's what most of us don't know, so we train.
I am one that believes training can overcome fear.
Bragging is fun, but it's also a lot of hot air until you do the work....successfully.

 

[rblum]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned bear spray as a preference. It seems that it has a wider "cone" of effective aim, is much much cheaper, and, if you are hunting with someone else, is a much safer option as it won't kill a hunting buddy if it hits him during a close encounter with a bear.

 

[Tex_Hunter]

I don't live in bear country nor have I hunted with brown bears. But I do shoot a lot of big bore revolvers. I have locked up several wheel guns with hot loads. They can fail. Mostly, I've had double actions lock up (Smith is prone to this), although it can happen with heavy frame singles too. I'm still of the mind that revolvers are less prone to failure than autos.....but. Be careful, know your gun, know your load, practice.
My personal choice would be 4 5/8" Ruger BH in 45 Colt. I can drive a 265gr Keith hard cast bullet through a 10" cypress log and I have yet to lock it up. But, I'm old skool.....
Be safe, Happy hunting, Merry Christmas!

Yeah, I had some relatively "mild" (if a 240gr XTP @1500fps can be considered mild) 454 Casull handloads lock up the cylinder on my Ruger Bisley after only 3 shots (cylinder holds 5). Was using new brass that hadnt been sized and had been originally belled for my 360gr hard cast bullets so this was partially my fault even though I had properly crimped them, but just goes to show that you dont even need to be on the redline to cause problems (1500fps is only about 75% for a Casull with that bullet for those wondering).

As far as the original topic, I run HSM "Bear Load" factory 335gr Hard Cast in my 454 Ruger Alaskan. It wakes you up but is very manageable even in that gun. I can keep double taps inside of a 12" circle with that load at 25yds. My 360gr Hard Cast handloads that I hunt with are un-shootable in the Alaskan. I carry the Alaskan everywhere when I am outdoors, the grip sometimes gets in the way if I am in and out of the truck a lot, but the weight has never been an issue on the hip. When the great panic of 2020 subsides (maybe in 2025) I will try and get a 10mm Glock to play around with.

 

[Pdvdh]

No hurt feelings. It's nothing personal. After reading your opinions on the subject, it wouldn't matter what data I provided. It's still wouldn't substantiate the 10mm pistol to be an adequate defense round for bears. I could tell you I shot a 360 lb boar hog in the frontal chest with a 200 grain BB Hardcast bullet where it exited the boar next to his scrotom. No bullet recovery. Several deer with some bullet recovery. One bear (black) at 30 yards with a 155 Corbon DPX and it exited both shoulders. No recovery. All fast effective kills with all animals recovered within 15 yards of being shot. Several other kills as well with similar results. Would that matter to someone that believes revolvers NEVER fail but semi's do. What's the purpose ? I could send pics all day long of revolver failures regardless of user error or pistol failure. Still a failure that could end up in a fatal bear attack. Stove pipes from semi auto's isn't a pistol problem either. It's from poor shooting form or limp wrist syndrome. There's always excuses for failures. Do they really matter ? The fact that one failed is all that matters and they BOTH do. That's been proven hundreds of times. We could argue that semi auto's are used in competition much more than revolvers because of speed of use. Power isn't a factor but speed and accuracy are, that's Point #1 on use for defense. Point #2 Could argue size and packability if the semi auto. Point #3 again could argue the controllability/shootability. Point#4 would be penetration. Even having less bullet weight and diameter, the .40 caliber hardcast bullets penetrate deeper even than the bullets from the pistols with 30-40% more energy and velocity in many cases. Definitely as deep in other cases. These facts still wouldn't change your opinions on the 10mm being an adequate bear defense round. I've read 51 pages of 2-3 members running a bone up the backside of the 10mm users opinions. I'd say giving any further opinions let alone facts on this subject is a waste of time. What I can say that is fact and printed and spoken about in many publications is that there are endless cases where Alaskan and Western State Bear guides have dropped using Big Bore pistols as their defense choice and replaced it with 10mm Glocks. This isn't debatable, it's a plain fact. In the end as I have said, it's a choice. One based on confidence and ability. After talking to a couple buddies that guide in Alaska, my choice is clear, proven and sound. Sounds like yours is as well. Agree to disagree is where that puts us. I don't agree that big wheel guns are inferior but don't believe they are superior. It's up to the user to make that decision for what they prefer.

Wow, there's an energetic mouthful. Was there an attempt to say the 10mm with the best bullet will out-penetrate the big bore revolver cartridges with the worst bullet selection? It seems penetration, or the lack thereof, pushed you over the edge. I wasn't expecting to learn the 10mm could compete. Everyone knows that's not possible given equal bullet selections. Was just looking for some real-life 10mm penetration depths on game. After all, we are discussing defensive sidearms for big animals. But maybe my question was unfair because the 10mm can't compete, and irrelevant because bears are the largest man-eating predator on the North American continent.

If you wanna be credible, be truthful.
Point 1) I quote your statement:

"Would that matter to someone that believes revolvers NEVER fail but semi's do."

That's a real whopper of a fabrication. What prompted that? Remind us all? In which post did I make that statement?

Point 2) I quote your statement:

"These facts still wouldn't change your opinions on the 10mm being an adequate bear defense round."

Here you go - again. In which post did I comment on the adequacy of the 10mm for bear defense. All my posts related to 10mm have been comparisons to larger bore, more powerful, revolver cartridges. Was it when I stated "This is why I always add, wish you well with the 10mm. Because there's a lotta wishful thinking going on there."? Did you conclude, ah-hah!, phorwath just said 10mms are inadequate, and decide it would make great reading? Rather than miss-translate my statements, why not just include my statements in "quotations" to your post? No doubt it'll lack flair and drama, won't echo off the sides of the mountains, but at least it'll be truthful and accurate. I prefer revolvers and their more powerful cartridges, which is to say, I think the 10mm is inferior, in comparison. I never stated the 10mm was adequate or inadequate. I don't miss-translate and miss-represent your statements. Would be wonderful if you extended the same courtesy.

Point 3) I quote your statement:

"I'd say giving any further opinions let alone facts on this subject is a waste of time."

Only you can decide if your opinions and facts are a waste of your time. Your false characterizations of my post, and complete fabrications… they're a problem no matter what you decide.

Point 4) I quote your statement:

"I've read 51 pages of 2-3 members running a bone up the backside of the 10mm user's opinions.

Agree to disagree is where that puts us."

Must be something about "50" pages. As in 49 is still OK…
I'm glad you said you agree to disagree. You sure had me fooled with the "bone up the backside" statement. Didn't think you had the capability of agreeing to disagree. My opinions run a bone up your backside, correct? I'm soooo fortunate that your expressed opinions have no such affect. Never knew the goal was agreement, never expected it, never demanded it.

Crediting me with fabricated statements, I admit that's an irritant. Suggests little tolerance for disagreement and the need to prevail. No reason to fabricate false statements, and then promote them as "facts". Your choice. Your prerogative. As it's mine to correct your false categorizations of my prior posts. Consequence... your credibility suffers all the way around.