Long range bullets for grizzly

[D.Camilleri]

I am a little late getting into this discussion, but I will add my two cents worth. First, when the perfect bullet is made, I will start using it. It would be a swift a frame with the bc of a berger vld. OK wake up, it doesn't exist. When I was just a boy, I can remember the campfire talks about shooting bull elk in the shoulder and having the bullet fail to penetrate the shoulder resulting in bullet failure. These accounts were back in the 50's and were probably what led to the success of the nosler partition. The early partions were a great bullet that retained a lot of weight, smashed through bone and mushroomed very well. Bullets have evolved, some for the good and some not so much. Several years ago I shot a nice bull elk at 542 yards with a 250 grain partition, hit square in the shoulder and he walked five yards and piled up. While quartering him up, I noticed a lot of damage to the outer part of the shoulder, large hole through the shoulder blade, and tiny hole going into the rib cage. The partion lost all of its frontal area going through the bone and only the shank made it into the chest cavity. Not the results I want.

I have recovered quite a few accubonds at this time, several from my 300 rum 180's shot into antelope between 3 and 4 hundred yards. Bullets mushroomed excellent broke shoulder and recovered under hide on off side. Recovered weight of about 60%. Overall good results, with the exception of one antelope had a 5 inch entrance wound that ruined the cape, but still DRT. I also shoot the 225 accubond out of my 338 rum and have 0 complaints with this bullet and finally recovered one last year out of a quartering shot on a mature muley, never got a chance to weigh the bullet, but looked like 60+ percent and excellent mushroom. So far many deer and elk have fallen to this bullet.

About 15 years ago I was shooting barnes x's with mixed results. One muley I shot in the neck with no exit hole at about 150 yards, 225 x from 338 win mag, DRT, but don't have a clue where the bullet went. Another muley that I shot with same load at 550 yards, kicked and didn't even slow down when hit through the lungs, hit again bad hit, don't really remember where, but didn't find the deer until the next day, about a mile from where I originally hit him. I gutted him even though he was spoiled, and witnessed a pencil hole through both lungs with no surounding tissue damage.

When I first bought my 338 rum in 2002, I loaded up 210 grain xlc barnes bt's and started killing elk. I recovered a bullet on a cow that my brother had made a bad hit on with a 7mm loaded with 160 partitions. The cow was getting away with the herd strung out when I put her down at around 550 with the x bullet. DRT, broke both shoulders and bullet recovered during processing with 3 pedals remaining and perfect mushroom.

I have had factory remington corelocks from a 7mm disintegrate in large hogs and small blacktail deer and while the animals died quickly, I wasn't happy that not one bit of the bullet ever struck the off side rib cage. I also had a 200 grain winchester soft point penetrate no more that 5 inches before grenading on a very large wild hog, DRT, but still not a bullet that I would want to count on with something with claws and teeth wanting to make me a snack.

What does all this mean, some general trends can be seen. I want a bullet that will expand reliably and not disintegrate, I also want a bullet that doesn't pencil. Until you have spent days searching for a trophy of a lifetime that was hit in the right spot with a bullet that failed to perform, you won't understand the commitment that goes into choosing a bullet that will do the job at hand.

I still haven't found my perfect bullet, but I am testing hornady interbonds, barnes tipped tripple shocks against the proven results of the accubonds. If swift made a 225 in the scirraco then I would probably try it also, and if I was looking for a lights out bear load, without a doubt it would be either barnes tipped tripple shock, swift a frame or trophy bonded bear claw based on tried and true results.

This doesn't mean that I won't use bergers, I just wont use them on anything larger than deer until first hand experience shows me different.

My take on high shoulder shots is that they work great when shot placement is perfect, but after hearing that a cameraman from Best of the West finally got tired of seeing lots of animals wounded from shots that weren't exactly where they needed to be, makes you think about watching tv show where editing makes everything look perfect.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Phorwath, That looks like the country and bear concentrations where Timothy got ate. I bet it is the same area. Not many places where you can see those kind of bear concentrations but the area of the park where he was and north up to Brooks falls, etc..

On second though down on the southeast islands to. Could be there. I doubt if speedo wants to divulge this info.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

D.camilleri, When you find it let me know. I am trying some 225 cutting edge bullets on game starting with caribou in Alaska. Solid copper hollow point similar to the barnes but with a .64+ bc and a softer copper that may expand easier at low velocity. I don't know that yet but will let you know in September.

Met Berry while I was at the pool shooting hoops the other day. We need to all get together and shoot some.

 

[D.Camilleri]

LTLR,

If you could turn off the rain, I would love to go shoot. Berry just bought another 338 rum xcr and is waiting for rings and bases to show up so we can go shoot it. He got us a great deal on some loaded 338 ultra ammo federal with 225 accubond, got it for the price of new brass. The factory federal is a little slow, but cronoed at about 3100 out of Berry's gun, I haven't had a chance to try it out of mine yet. This factory stuff has a cannulature ring on the bullet and appears to be crimped. Still trying to figure out my powders, was leaning towards h-1000 until I found the lot variances. I like reloader 25, but it seems to be temp sensitive. Did you get a chance to try and figure the actual bc of the tipped tripple shock?

 

[Pdvdh]

About 15 years ago I was shooting barnes x's with mixed results. One muley I shot in the neck with no exit hole at about 150 yards, 225 x from 338 win mag, DRT, but don't have a clue where the bullet went. Another muley that I shot with same load at 550 yards, kicked and didn't even slow down when hit through the lungs, hit again bad hit, don't really remember where, but didn't find the deer until the next day, about a mile from where I originally hit him. I gutted him even though he was spoiled, and witnessed a pencil hole through both lungs with no surrounding tissue damage.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with all those different bullets. I had a box of Barnes original X bullets that I wanted to use up, so my son and I took them to Kodiak Island and shot a number of blacktail deer in the early 2000s. Eight if I recall correctly. These were .284 160 grain X bullets being fired from a 280 RCBS Improved. Ranges were all less than 175 yards. I wanted to minimize meat damage and I knew these bullets would bore through the deer without the splash effect of many other bullets. They performed just about as I expected. The deer didn't drop in their tracks unless they were front shouldered or spined - accidentally. What was very evident was the lack of physiological shock imparted to the deer that were double lunged. One buck walked off about 175 yards before dropping over from blood loss. Three other bucks needed follow-up shots. But I do believe that every single bullet expanded within the animals.

From what I hear and have experienced, the new Barnes TSX bullets seem to open a little faster and seem to shock the animals a bit better. I haven't used the Barnes TTSX bullets, but I would expect the tip to promote the mushroom of the petals even more quickly. So they might be the way to go. For now, I still have some TXSs that need used up. Then maybe I'll try some of the TTSX for my 'bear' and 'camp' loads in the 7mm Rem Mags and 300 Win Mag.

BTW, I shot a bull moose in 1994 at 630 yards with the Barnes 210 grain xlc bt's using a .338-378 Wthby. Two shots, although the first had done the job. First hit was broadside through the middle of the ribs. The second shot was into one of the ball sockets in the butt as the bull trotted directly away from me. Both bullets performed very well. Strange thing was, the bullet through the ribs lost three petals, retaining only one. While the bullet that crushed the hip socket retained 3 petals. Go figure?

 

[Pdvdh]

I doubt if Speedo wants to divulge this info.

Maybe if we said Pretty please...

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

What rain, been snowing here for two days. Beautiful white memorial day here. Socked in rain/snow mix now that is why I am in here on the computer and loading bullets today. At least my bullets will be ready when the weather is. Nobody around here has ever seen so much rain. One guy looked at his records from his rain gauge and we have got more rain in the last month than the last five years combined. We live in a desert and had nine inches one weekend.

Will be doing bc test on the barnes 185 ttsx and CE 225 when the weather clears. My drops on jbm show the 185 to be quite a bit higher than listed. I was actually coming in near .5. The CE I shot once with my 338-378 to 1000 yards at 3466 fps. The drops showed .653. I talked to the ce guys for about an hour and they said the .64 was conservative and it could be a little low at .64. But who knows until I get two calibrated chronos set up. My 338 RUM pushed the 185 over 3500 fps easily. I easily killed stuff out to 800 yards with that bullet last year out of my 338 winchester at 3220 fps. Out of a 338 RUM 1000 yards easy if the wind cooperates. Out of several animals the bullet performed perfect as I could imagine. I think light is the way to go with the barnes. We have killed numerous animals with the 257 wby and 100 ttsx's. Perfect performance every time. I can say from the old barnes x days these new bullets are way better, No comparison.

Thanks to everyone for sharing so much bullet info here. New guys can really learn a lot here from years of experience.

Phorwath, It wouldn't do me any good if I knew the spot. It would you though. Maybe you could claim me as a long lost relative or something and I could hunt to.

 

[Speedo]

Maybe if we said Pretty please...

That picture was from Kodiak, a whale carcass had washed ashore, the pilot said that there were as many bears on the hillside as there were on the beach.

There are some places where the bears are plentiful because they are nearly inaccessible from the air, no lakes big enough for a Cub on floats and the terrain doesn't lend itself to Cubs on wheels either, that's about all I'll say on that.

Gus

 

[Pdvdh]

That picture was from Kodiak, a whale carcass had washed ashore, the pilot said that there were as many bears on the hillside as there were on the beach.

There are some places where the bears are plentiful because they are nearly inaccessible from the air, no lakes big enough for a Cub on floats and the terrain doesn't lend itself to Cubs on wheels either, that's about all I'll say on that.

Gus

I saw about 70 bears during one 10-day spring hunt on Kodiak Island. But that involved a lot of outboard engine time covering 30 or more miles of hillsides from the skiff.

 

[D.Camilleri]

For what it is worth, I have never killed a grizzly, not that I haven't wanted too when coming across a big griz with an attitude. It seems the griz in Wyoming have no fear of man at all. I have shot several very large black bears. First one was in northern Ca. in an area known for very big black bears. I saw a bear across a canyon and took an estimated 600 yard shot with my 7mm mag shooting 160 gr partitions @ 3150. I hit the bear square in the shoulder, he bit at his shoulder and started to roll. I watched him roll close to 200 yards down a steep hill side. It took me around a hour and a half to reach the last point that I saw the bear. No blood. I looked for that bear for two days and never found a trace. Lost bear.

The next bear in the same area, was a very large boar, my dad was with me and we saw the bear walking towards us in a creek bottom. I gave dad first shot. Dad flattened the bear at about 100 yards with a 210 grain partition from his 338 win mag. Then while dad was gathering his casing, I saw the bear splash into the creek and come out like he wasn't even touched. I took a running shot with my 7mm and broke his hip. I saw him go down and as I ran up to see his condition, he was gone. I got to where I last saw him and he was 150 yards up the hill heading for thick brush. I put a 160 grain partition behind the shoulder and into the boiler room. He was down, but didn't expire for close to five minutes. After skinning the bear out, we learned some things. First, a head on shot at a big bear isn't a good shot. Dad hit the bear exactly where he aimed and broke his shoulder, the problem is the bears anatomy, the bullet exited the back side of the shoulder and followed the space between the hide and the chest cavity all the way back to the ham. Bullet didn't enter the boiler room. My first shot broke the bears hip. This bear was moving out with a broken shoulder and a broken hip like he wasn't hurt. My final shot did the job, but not with authority. The shot was only 100-150 yards, I recovered the nosler partition in the chest cavity. The bullet never touched the off side of the rib cage. This was a big bear, over 500 lbs, and just missed making B&C with over a 20 inch scull.

My point with all of this is that bears are very tough, and grizzlies have even tougher attitudes. After my encounters and those of several friends who also lost big bears in the same area, I came to the conclusion that bigger guns with heavier bullets were needed for these bigger animals. This was when I stepped up to a 338 and have never looked back. A 300 rum will work well on a griz, but I would be shooting a 200 grain bullet with controlled expansion for deep penetration and preferably complete pass through.

 

[Pistol packer]

wow! that got heated. ha. it's amazing how much experience and good advice that you guys have. so far as i have read, i agree with nearly everything everyone has said. the books and the experts dont agree with my experiences either. i used to shoot nosler partitions and dont anymore because i had 2 to fail. one failed to expand-at all and the other one blew up. both were fired consecutively on a moose. i know of a lot of others in alaska who wont shoot them anymore either. that said, i was always told to not shoot target bullets because they will not penetrate. i then proceeded to blow a hole right thru a 10 inch creosote telephone pole with a 168 gr hornady HPBT. small hole in, .40 out. also with sierra HPBT MK. 200 gr. that being said, i think i can tie in everyones comments.
there are actually two different bear experiences. HUNTING and SELF DEFENSE. hunting big bears is easy and they die easy, so to speak. SELF DEFENSE on big bears is an entirely different matter. a bear can live for over one hour with NO BLOOD in its system. their muscles have so much myoglobin that they can live off the oxygen just in their muscles for that long. a quiet brown bear (browns live on the coast, grizzlies live interior and kodiaks live on kodiak-they are all the same bear with some very minor anatomical differences) is not the same animal as an attacking, adrenaline junkie, hopped up brownie. a fish and game (AK) friend of mine has never used anything bigger than a 7 mm RM and he says that is overkill-on a hunt. on an attacker--we had a few years ago a fish and game officer with his wife just off the shellikoff straits on the mainland get attacked and from about 40 yards he put 5 375 H&H rounds and his wife put that many 338 WM rounds into him it before it piled up on their feet. that's cranking out some firepower in a mighty big hurry. the guides i have talked to that have been charged by a hopped up bruin have all said the same thing-if you want to stop one of these freight trains you need 10,000 ft pounds of muzzle energy. that is if you want to stop it NOW. seems that is a magical number that kept popping up. it made the 500 rigby or 500 A-Square as it is known very popular with several guides. the old timers also talk of this. they found VERY LARGE bore rifles with LARGE projectiles hardened enough for thorough penetration at about 2000 ft/sec was just the ticket for such a problem. now i have several other friends who have been guides for many years and have never been charged by a stalking/crazed killer and they carry 338 WM and 375 H&Hs and say that is enough. ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN ATTACKED BY SUCH AN ANIMAL say that a 458 WM is the minimum and bigger is better. Charlie Lean, a retired AK F&G (whose father was a bear guide and also helped develope the 450 alaskan cartridge when he was in Cooper Landing, and grandfather was a bear guide-shot as many as 60 bear in one field of fire in one day) once told me that NO ONE had ever survived a bear ATTACK using a 44 mag for self defense. that was '83. i was working on a 360 grainer for the 44 and since then several people have survived such attacks using these ultraheavy, hard cast bear loads and they kill them attacking and with ONE shot. they drop as if poleaxed.
the point of the above essay is that when i was in bear country-which is ANY time you are in AK, anywhere, i was always packing a 44 or bigger with massive heavy bullets. if i didnt have one of those, i was carrying a super penetrator--e.g. 45-70 with 430 hard cast at 2100 fps, 458 WM, or my pop gun of 300 WM with barnes X (i would stuff the ttx in now-as i like the dense tungsten and shorter bullet, or the Fail Safe winchester in the biggest they make). bears can move incredibly fast. i have seen an 8 foot sow charge 600 yards DOWN HILL over hugh boulders in 3 sec. caribou can run 45 mph and they were, but it appeared as if they were standing still compared to her as she descended upon them.
i have seen many more such incidences. there is a video from glacier national park, here in montana, that the shooter of that video is not known. all that was found of him was his voice on the film and the camera. the last footage was him filming a grizzly at 400 yds. killing an elk. it descended so fast the elk only moved 10 yards from the time it took the bear to go 200. then the bear turned and charged the 400 to the camera. less than 3 seconds. if he is wound up tight and less than 60 yards away-you will have ONE shot if the gun is in ready position and you just have to tilt and shoot. i wouldnt count on my guide because he may be undergunned too and he will have one shot if he is as fast as you or you, him. there are many "old" guides in alaska who have never seen what i have just told you and even less who have seen the below.

the conclusion to this is simply what one previous person said, load ttx or some similar super penetrators for walking, traveling, etc. and the VLDs for the sheep, caribou, etc. the VLD wont be used to kill that which hunts you, so you will have time to switch to them and the zero can be held for them for long distance. you dont need to have much of a zero for a 10 foot, 1600 pound car coming from 30 yards at 40 mph. it's going to be point and shoot anyway.

last item: talkeetna and alaska posters- that F&G friend has a 16 FOOT SQUARE bear hide his father shot, he doesnt tell people about it and he cant put it in his house as it would cover the floor, wall and some of the ceiling. the FIRST bear i ever saw was on 6-21-83 and it was 18 ft SQUARE (that is what F&G told me). they darted it 10 years later and a Lone ranger II helicopter couldnt lift it to weigh it-about 4000 pounds. a 16 footer isnt just 60% bigger than a 10 footer. it is over 200 % bigger. the 18 footer was 8-10 feet wide at the shoulder and if he stood up he was over 20 ft tall. his FRONT prints were almost 20 in wide. i walked in them with my size 11 bunny boots (ha, in the middle of summer-that's the arctic for you) and they were so much bigger than my boots that i didnt know that they were tracks for several minutes. they were like a 18 in plate with 5 toes, one almost 4 in across, and very long claw points. i have seen 3 others that were 14 -16 foot square. in fact a eskimo friend of mine taunted me about those stories and said he had never even seen a bear in this region and he was 24 yr old and fished and hunted a lot. so, i took him fishing and we saw a 14 footer that day. no more taunting. he was so scared he almost broke an ankle running when it was 500 yards away still. also, i stood 3 foot from a 12 foot 2000 pound BLACK bear, not a grizzly, in seward. he was later shot by the police and measured over 12 square and over 6 foot tall at the shoulder.
i know how big he was because i am 6 ft, 1 in and i was standing in my front door on a 8 in step and when i opened the front door he was on all fours and he was looking me in the face less than 8 inches away. his shoulders were too wide to come in. needless to say, i slammed the door so fast that my wife said the door appeared to go thru my body as she never saw me move out of the doorway.
several friends of mine and i was in a truck when a 11 foot black bear in talkeetna crossed the road. his *** was just getting past the white shoulder line on the hwy as his HEAD was already past the center line 11 feet away. he stood 6 feet or better on all fours.
there are much bigger bears than kodiaks. this is one of the best kept secrets in alaska. several people are in the know but they wont talk about it too much. if you want to see one-go to the ak peninsula past Katmai. if you notice, there are no villages there, either on the coast or inland. there is a reason why. F&G wont even go in there. it is a suicide mission. dead man's cove is not a misnomer. Just remember, more people get killed by juvenile browns (6-8footers) than all the "monster" browns put together, more people die from blacks than browns and more people die from moose than all of the above put together.
so make your decision. i hope you live by it. dont take the guide or anything else for granted. listen to him and do everything he says immediately just dont depend on him to stop every life threatening event. i hope this has cleared up what appeared to be conflicting opinions. they really werent. they were just talking about different situations.
i would be interested in your post hunt stories and pics. i have only met one out of 100 or so guides that knew about the super brownies, but it is the crack-head, schizo ADD one that will get you not the superbig ones as they seem to be really reluctant to come out into the open and be seen at anytime. that may be one reason they get so big, but i believe that they are an actual subspecies as the cubs i have seen are 6-7 feet at 2 y.o.a.
so you know that the disney version of bears are not real, but neither is what the F&G tells you about bears, wolves or any PETA/greenie subject. remember, alaska seems like its on this planet, but it really isnt.
doc

 

[elkaholic]

600 yards in 3 seconds! Hmmm, I calculate that about 409 mph! Was that the 4000 lb. griz or the 2000 lb. black? Do you know what his stopping distance was? What kind of lead do you think a person might need at that speed at say 300 yards with a 458 WM if the bear was running at right angles? Boy, a lot to think about here!........Rich

 

[Pdvdh]

last item: talkeetna and alaska posters- that F&G friend has a 16 FOOT SQUARE bear hide his father shot, he doesnt tell people about it and he cant put it in his house as it would cover the floor, wall and some of the ceiling. the FIRST bear i ever saw was on 6-21-83 and it was 18 ft SQUARE (that is what F&G told me). they darted it 10 years later and a Lone ranger II helicopter couldnt lift it to weigh it-about 4000 pounds. a 16 footer isnt just 60% bigger than a 10 footer. it is over 200 % bigger. the 18 footer was 8-10 feet wide at the shoulder and if he stood up he was over 20 ft tall. his FRONT prints were almost 20 in wide. i walked in them with my size 11 bunny boots (ha, in the middle of summer-that's the arctic for you) and they were so much bigger than my boots that i didnt know that they were tracks for several minutes. they were like a 18 in plate with 5 toes, one almost 4 in across, and very long claw points. i have seen 3 others that were 14 -16 foot square. in fact a eskimo friend of mine taunted me about those stories and said he had never even seen a bear in this region and he was 24 yr old and fished and hunted a lot. so, i took him fishing and we saw a 14 footer that day. no more taunting. he was so scared he almost broke an ankle running when it was 500 yards away still. also, i stood 3 foot from a 12 foot 2000 pound BLACK bear, not a grizzly, in seward. he was later shot by the police and measured over 12 square and over 6 foot tall at the shoulder.
i know how big he was because i am 6 ft, 1 in and i was standing in my front door on a 8 in step and when i opened the front door he was on all fours and he was looking me in the face less than 8 inches away. his shoulders were too wide to come in. needless to say, i slammed the door so fast that my wife said the door appeared to go thru my body as she never saw me move out of the doorway.
several friends of mine and i was in a truck when a 11 foot black bear in talkeetna crossed the road. his *** was just getting past the white shoulder line on the hwy as his HEAD was already past the center line 11 feet away. he stood 6 feet or better on all fours.
there are much bigger bears than kodiaks. this is one of the best kept secrets in alaska. several people are in the know but they wont talk about it too much. if you want to see one-go to the ak peninsula past Katmai. if you notice, there are no villages there, either on the coast or inland. there is a reason why. F&G wont even go in there. it is a suicide mission. dead man's cove is not a misnomer. Just remember, more people get killed by juvenile browns (6-8footers) than all the "monster" browns put together, more people die from blacks than browns and more people die from moose than all of the above put together.
so make your decision. i hope you live by it. dont take the guide or anything else for granted. listen to him and do everything he says immediately just dont depend on him to stop every life threatening event. i hope this has cleared up what appeared to be conflicting opinions. they really werent. they were just talking about different situations.

remember, alaska seems like its on this planet, but it really isnt.
doc

Pistol packer,

I've heard some dandies before, but your stories take grand prize for TALL tales. What were you smoking before you authored your Post?

I can assure you that Alaska is on this planet. But bears of the size you describe are not.

How long ago did you see these bears? Were there any great wooly mammoths standing next to them? That bear that was 8-10 foot wide at the shoulders, 20 foot standing up, with 20" wide paws. Did it have a long trunk and big floppy ears?

You show me a bear that's 8-10 feet wide at the shoulder, 20 feet tall standing on rears, with 20" wide paws, and I'll show you a dinosaur.

 

[Pdvdh]

600 yards in 3 seconds! Hmmm, I calculate that about 409 mph! Was that the 4000 lb. griz or the 2000 lb. black? Do you know what his stopping distance was? What kind of lead do you think a person might need at that speed at say 300 yards with a 458 WM if the bear was running at right angles? Boy, a lot to think about here!........Rich

Hi Rich,
Can I revise the specifications on those custom bullets? I live up here and just messed my britches... I need BIG bullets!