Long range bullets for grizzly

[Pdvdh]

It can be done but not a very good idea. I have hunted bears for 40 years and killed way more than I can remember counting. They are thin skinned but extremely heavy boned and tough muscular. With the perfect shot and angle you can certainly do it. I do not like for things to have to be perfect. Fragmenting bullets are scary on grizzly because you never know if the bullet has done it's job or blown into a zillion pieces on tough muscle or bone. I don't like those chances. I am not saying you can't do it. A guy just needs to get the proper bullets to make sure he gets the job done.

I understood your intent from the get-go, and agree completely. The question wasn't could a grizzly be killed with a Berger or a Amax. He asked for our thoughts on the use of the Berger VLD and Hornady Amax for sheep and grizzly. The advice you provided on the bear bullets is the same as mine.

I had a Berger 210 VLD pass through the rib cage of a Dall sheep last fall with no expansion. I've had a Berger 210 VLD fail to penetrate 12 inches on a shrimp of a black bear at about 7 yards. The reliability of the expansion of the Bergers is good enough that I'll use them in 7mm and .308 calibers on animals that don't claw and bite back. They've failed me twice over the past 4 years to the point that I won't use them on grizzly or brown bears. You don't need the very highest BC bullet to kill a grizzly bear, unless you're trying to set a world record for killing a grizzly at distance. A 180 or 200 grain Nosler Accubond will be a MUCH more reliable bullet for taking down a large grizzly at anything other than the perfect broadside presentation - than a Berger VLD or Amax.

I hunt Dall sheep every fall. I'm not sure why several people have said take only one bullet/load with you. For years I've use the most accurate higher BC bullet load I could find for sheep, and also carried what I call 'bear' or 'camp' loads, which are either Nosler Accubond, Barnes TSX, or Jack Carter (now Speer) Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets. For the record, I've shot three Kodiak Brown Bears, one grizzly, between one and two dozen Dall rams, and more black bears than you can shake a stick at.

If you're rifle is a tack driver with the 210 Berger VLD or the 208 Amax, develop and use your most accurate load for LONG range sheep with one of those bullets.

Develop a second load for grizzly bear using a controlled expansion bullet. Carry your 'bear' load in the rifle's magazine while hiking around and around the camp site in case you bump into your grizzly. If you suddenly find yourself close up on either a nice grizzly or Dall ram, go ahead and use your 'bear' loads which are already in your magazine. Almost any premium, controlled expansion bullet is accurate enough, fast enough, and flat enough out of a .300 RUM or even a .300 Win Mag to easily kill a grizzly bear or Dall ram out to 300 yards. If you spot a nice Dall ram at long range and end up having to take your shot at farther than 300-400 yards away, drop all the 'bear' rounds out of the magazine so the tips don't deform under recoil, and then load your 210 VLD or 208 Amax loads single-shot style. Given any truly long range shot, you'll have all the time in the world to switch over to your most accurate long range loads.

I've done this for years, and never felt handicapped in the slightest. I use the most accurate high BC bullet/load I can develop for my rifle for long range shots at Dall rams. I use my 'bear' loads for bears or for close range shots on the Dall rams. Slicker than snot! I spend 90% of my load development time fine tuning the long range load. 10% of the time developing the 'bear' and 'camp' load.

Can a grizzly bear be killed with a .22 LR or a FMJ .22 Win Magnum? Most certainly. Do I believe hunters have killed grizzly bears with Berger VLDs and Hornady Amax? Absolutely. I believe it can be done with a single shot with a perfectly presented bear more than 90% of the time, by a practiced and capable hunter. My thoughts about the use of these bullets on grizzly bears? They're relatively poor selections, because there are so many better, higher percentage one-shot kill bullet options available. And unlike the prey animals (deer, moose, caribou, elk, sheep, mountain goat, etc,), a bear that isn't delivered a killing shot with the first hit will more often than not head for cover and keep going until he reaches it. They don't run 50-100 yards and stop to look around and see what's up. I missed a large brown bear in the alders on Kodiak Island in about 1996. I then tracked that bear for more than four miles in an inch or so of freshly fallen snow. That bear never lay down once. From my observations of his tracks, I don't believe he ever even stopped moving once over that 4+ miles. It got dark, and I was far enough from camp that it was time to turn back. My point being, of the game I hunt in Alaska, none more so than the bears - black, grizzly, or brown - require a first hit fatal shot for purposes of certain recovery. After the first hit, the rest of the shots will be at a moving bear, until he's dead or gone into the brush. Now if you miss the bear with your first shot at long range, you may get another shot at a motionless bear. You wing him or hit him with a bullet that fails to take out the vitals, and your odds of ever hitting that bear again go down drastically.

Don't mean to inflame any of the other members who have posted differently. Their differing experiences no doubt have led them to differing conclusions.

 

[liltank]

One word "SST"! This will provide penetration, and expansion suitable for any game. If you don't like that, then the old Remmy Core-Lokt, Speer Hot-Cor, or Deep Curl if your rifle will shoot them. GMX or E-tip will do it. Don't like those, try the Interbonds and the Accu-bomb. Shoot it, learn it, kill it! Nough said.

Tank

P.S. Side note, watched a hunting show a few years ago. Guy was shooting a 30-378 Weatherby running 130 Nosler ballistic tips over 4000fps. He dropped several very large (800-1000lbs) black bears on some famous bear island up in Canada in one shot. The impact was so violent that the bear folded, twitched, and died. Shot were between 75 to 300yrds.

 

[Pdvdh]

He dropped several very large (800-1000lbs) black bears on some famous bear island up in Canada in one shot.

Were these bears in a cage? Because an 800-1000 lb black bear would be an all-time record for a wild black bear, to the best of my knowledge. Freaks of nature.

 

[liltank]

Were these bears in a cage? Because an 800-1000 lb black bear would be an all-time record for a wild black bear, to the best of my knowledge. Freaks of nature.

Okay, maybe 600 or so. I know they were some of the biggest black bears I have ever seen. It was amazing to see how effective that round was when they hit though.

Tank

 

[elkaholic]

Phorwath....I was getting ready to post something but your narrative was "so spot on" that I will shorten my comments considerably! I use Berger bullets and like them for many applications but just as you said, they will pass thru with NO expansion at times with lower velocities and COMPLETELY come apart at times with high velocity. If you could pick your shots on a large bear as far as distance and shot placement, I have no doubt whatsoever that a Berger will kill as quick or quicker than anything! If you are reacting to what the bear wants to do, I can think of a lot of better choices.....Rich

 

[elkaholic]

Phorwath....I was getting ready to post something but your narrative was "so spot on" that I will shorten my comments considerably! I use Berger bullets and like them for many applications but just as you said, they will pass thru with NO expansion at times with lower velocities and COMPLETELY come apart at times with high velocity. If you could pick your shots on a large bear as far as distance and shot placement, I have no doubt whatsoever that a Berger will kill as quick or quicker than anything! If you are reacting to what the bear wants to do, I can think of a lot of better choices.....Rich

 

[elkaholic]

One word "SST"! This will provide penetration, and expansion suitable for any game. If you don't like that, then the old Remmy Core-Lokt, Speer Hot-Cor, or Deep Curl if your rifle will shoot them. GMX or E-tip will do it. Don't like those, try the Interbonds and the Accu-bomb. Shoot it, learn it, kill it! Nough said.

Tank

P.S. Side note, watched a hunting show a few years ago. Guy was shooting a 30-378 Weatherby running 130 Nosler ballistic tips over 4000fps. He dropped several very large (800-1000lbs) black bears on some famous bear island up in Canada in one shot. The impact was so violent that the bear folded, twitched, and died. Shot were between 75 to 300yrds.

Tank.....I have never personally shot a bear with an SST so take this for what it is worth (nothing personal) I have had SST's come apart in mid air before reaching the target when fired from a 300 RUM with only an 11 twist. This told me ALL I needed to know as far as them being a dangerous game bullet........Rich

 

[liltank]

Tank.....I have never personally shot a bear with an SST so take this for what it is worth (nothing personal) I have had SST's come apart in mid air before reaching the target when fired from a 300 RUM with only an 11 twist. This told me ALL I needed to know as far as them being a dangerous game bullet........Rich

No offense taken. That is why I listed other options. My cousin put an SST through a deers neck at 30yds @2950fps. It entered with a small hole, smashed two or three vertebrae and exited with about a quarter size hole. Guess they aren't meant for the speeds a RUM can push them.

Tank

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

The point is when hunting big grizzlies and brown bears guides prefer a cartridge and properly constructed bullet that can shoot through both shoulders and incapacitate the bear by crushing him to the ground quickly. The guide and outfitter is responsible for retrieving your bear and your personal safety. They do not like to chase wounded bears into alder thickets after being hit with marginal fragmenting bullets. They have the experience to know that they have no idea what they will be facing not knowing if the bullet performed properly or not.

Broz, I am not saying you can't kill game with berger bullets. I am saying there are much better choices for big bears and large bull elk. I know of and see elk like the one in your picture shot and killed every year with berger bullets. The problem is I also see and know of many each year that are shot and never recovered. Shots that would have killed the elk with the proper cartridge and bullet choice but the berger did not perform properly and the bull died as bear food. Now the hunter is looking for another bull to kill and maybe he will find this one or maybe not. I have known of far to many experiences where unreliable performance cost the guy his bull. If those hunters had been using a premium quality controlled expansion bullet they would have got their bull.

As far as fouling I have never had a problem shooting Barnes bullets if the rifle is cleaned like it should be. I also have never had one fail and drive every one with 100% performance predictability through the animal I am shooting at. Any angle I can drive it through to the vitals instead of being concerned that it will blow up on tough muscle or bone and not penetrate the vitals.

This brings me to another point. I put every odd in my favor when hunting. I have had great success as a hunter probably because of that and I know what I am doing through experience. Through the years I have come to know a tremendous amount of jealousy and resentfulness because of my successes. I experienced it last year in Alaska severely. People always wonder why does he always come out with a nice trophy and no excuses. Other guys come out with excuses and a nice trophy every once in a while. I think the reason is in every decision I make for a hunting trip from where and how to hunt, to the rifle and components I use, I play every odd to my favor. Out of stacking all of those odds they add up to success. I am not saying do everything like I do, that is obsurd. Just whatever choices a guy makes stack all the odds in your favor for success.

 

[elkaholic]

No offense taken. That is why I listed other options. My cousin put an SST through a deers neck at 30yds @2950fps. It entered with a small hole, smashed two or three vertebrae and exited with about a quarter size hole. Guess they aren't meant for the speeds a RUM can push them.

Tank

That's the great thing about this forum, you get so many different experiences that can be absorbed and used as you see fit. Thanks for not being offended.....Rich

 

[436]

Been on many Sheep, Moose and Grizzly hunts with the 300 RUM. Forget the idea of taking a Grizz at long range, especially with the Berger or the A-Max. The Sheep will be your longest shot. The Berger or the A-Max will work fine for the Sheep, but why complicate matters. When I was shooting the RUM, I found an extremely accurate load with the 200 gr AB, and that is what was in the magazine when I was in the Alaskan bush. Most of the time you will run across the Grizz when you are sheep or moose hunting.
If your particular rifle does not like the 200 AB, then try the 180 AB, and don't look back.

+1 Why?
436

 

[Broz]

a cartridge and properly constructed bullet that can shoot through both shoulders and incapacitate the bear by crushing him to the ground quickly.

Broz, I know of and see elk like the one in your picture shot and killed every year with berger bullets. The problem is I also see and know of many each year that are shot and never recovered. Shots that would have killed the elk with the proper cartridge and bullet choice but the berger did not perform properly and the bull died as bear food. If those hunters had been using a premium quality controlled expansion bullet they would have got their bull.

I also have never had one fail and drive every one with 100% performance predictability through the animal I am shooting at. Any angle I can drive it through to the vitals instead of being concerned that it will blow up on tough muscle or bone and not penetrate the vitals.

LTLR, I respect your experience and opinion. But mine is of a different opinion. and here is why.

1: a bullet that is strong enough it will penetrate both shoulders and hard muscle yet will still expand enough also if placed at any angle even in the rib cage ? I will never see how one bullet can do this. I would expect this strong bullet to have a very small wound channel especially if it misssed a rib on the way in. This is my expeience with Barnes, and the game runs off.

2: I never understand statements where " We made a perfect bulet placement but the game got away and was not recovered" I have seen some of these perfect place bullets myself in the case were we recovered them. Either the next day or in pics. The fact every time was they were gut shots. Then when they were found they became " Back of the rib cage shots" The facts here are a framenting bullet could have actually helped by sending fragments into vitals instead of one small hole in the guts where a slow death took place.

3: the bull pictured below was a 210 Berger @ 250 yards. He was at the top of a huge drainage and getting ready to go back down as he saw me. I wanted him down! I knew what the recovery would be like if he went down the drainage. I shot him center shoulder with a 30-378. Not a slow round for sure. Both shoulders were broken and almost a complete pass through, both lungs were toast, fragments in he heart?? Maybe?. Maybe this is no a huge bull, but at least a big one, and the Bergers worked perfectly for me. Just like the Bull I took last year at 803 yards, again with 210 Bergers at 803 yards. Only this time I was at fault and the Bergers saved my butt. I was off on my wind call. The bullelt landed at "The rear of the rib cage" in reality a little bit forward gut shot. 210 Berger , from a 300 win at 2995 MV. Complete pass through with a 3" exit. Plus I could see the blood running down his side on the entrance from point of fire. Thank god for an expanding bullet and the Bull only made it less than 100 yards as he was bleeding out fast. I will expect there would be less trauma from a TXS that would not have expanded at all but can not prove it.

This is why I hate bullet debates. The real facts are, every shot placment, angle, velocity, bone or muscle encountered or not, are all different. Each bullet will act differently. I believe there is no one bullet does all in all game. I understand how you feel and what you believe as far as penetration. But I come from the school of mass destruction of vitals. My Berger will make it to the chest cavity to do this. This I truely believe and I too have seen it time and time again on many different sized animals.

Once again I say, use what you shoot well and what you believe in.

I know from reading your posts for years and talking on the phone with you you are a great hunter and shooter with tons of rifle experience. But I also know what I have seen work for me for years too.

"Here's to both your and my full freezers".

Good hunting to you!

Broz, over and out! gun)---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[elkaholic]

There have been a lot of very good arguements made by some knowledeable folks concening the various attributes of bullet performance. No one has a monopoly on all the right answers and it has been well stated that every single shot (situation) is different. IMO, the game changes a little when dealing with dangerous game! It makes sense to me that you have to look at worse case which equates to "what if the bear is in charge of the situation"? If you can pick your shot, then almost any bullet will get the job done if you know its limitations and aim accordingly. In other words, you might choose a rib cage shot with a Berger and a shoulder shot with an accubond at the same distance. If the bear is charging or maybe all you have is a quartering to shot, you MUST have a bullet that will reach the vitals! In other words, it may not be the very best bullet for every circumstance as far as the quickest kill, but it may be the best in the one that will save your butt. This is why I think there is a major difference when we are talking dangerous game vs. other large animals that don't bite! I also think that we should all use what we feel comfortable with," as Jeff pointed out". This is what I feel comfortable with....Rich

 

[Shooter264]

Broz.
You said it absolutely perfect. I have seen people make marginal hits on animals with "bonded" type bullets as well as VLD's. In my experience, I have repeatedly seen more animals successfully recovered with the VLD bullets on marginal hits as I have the "bonded". I do not buy into nor will I ever of the stories of " I shot the elk at 100 yards and hit him in the shoulder with my super wizz bang and the Darn VLD just blew up on his shoulder and he ran off to never be seen again". That is hogwash.

People are 100% correct on the bullet debates. Unless we have seen it all, who's to say who's right. It is always interesting to hear the stories about how a AB or Barnes penetrated 3 california redwood trees, 2 big granite boulders, and then made a complete pass through on a 17 foot wide Wapiti!! And those darn VLD bullets just blow up on the shoulders of field mice!!! That was meant to be a bit of humor but there are several people that I am sure will not see it that way!!

At the end of the day, shoot what you shoot well. After all who would have ever thunk that more polar bears have been killed with a 220 swift then the big magnums.