Long range bullets for grizzly

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Hope you have continued succes and good luck on your bear hunt this weekend. I have seen the bergers work perfect on elk just like you described. My point is on many occasions I have known them to not be dependable and blow into a zillion pieces not penetrating the vitals. The next shot is a pencil hole with very little expansion. It seems like there is no consistency. I shoot bergers in every caliber I own at caribou, deer, antelope and smaller critters but after seeing and knowing of so many elk lost to bergers because of inconsistent performance I will not shoot them at elk. It seems on one animal I get a complete pass through and another a complete blow up.

I am not arguing with you, to the contrary I respect your opinion. I am just stating my experiences and what I have seen. I understand you are just stating your experiences. Living in top elk country like we do with many cow tags and with a lot of friends after them each year it is not uncommon for us lucky guys who live here to see 10-20 elk per year shot. Add that times 30-35 years and it adds up to quite a few elk. Last year I saw nine elk get shot at one time out of a large herd with nine guys filling tags within a couple minutes one day. This gives us quite a bit more opportunity to evaluate performance than guys who do not live here. Along with that add all the caribou, sheep, grizzly, over two months in Alaska last year for me. Deer, antelope, etc down here. Lots of stuff. Guys that live out here or travel and hunt regularly get to see dozens of animals a year sometime to make an evaluation instead of 2-5 per year like many hunters. It makes a difference in these guys overall schema of knowledge as the years go by as to performance of various components.

A couple years ago on here I remember a guy getting on to me that knew everything about elk hunting. He said he had been hunting elk in Colorado for 21 years and killed 17 bulls and was a top pro. One of my buddies here read it and told me privately , "Well I guess we had a few bad years like that and only saw 15 or so get killed". Guys that live here and hunt quite a bit along with guiding on the side for outfitters when we were younger have got to see a bunch of animals bite the dust to help form our opinions. Since you also live in top elk country and shoot top equipment I respect your opinion also.

Best of luck on drawing this year and your hunts.

 

[Shooter264]

Long Time Long Ranger,
That was very well said as well. I too am a long time resident of NW Wyoming and have seen my fair share of critters tip over. The fact of the matter is that no matter what we read here, people will use what works for them. I am sure that no matter how hard I try or how much footage I show you I will not convince you that a VLD bullet is the best option for elk. Just like you will never see me with anything but a VLD for any Critter in North America, including the dangerous game. I have seen many Black bears as well as a Grizzly or two fall victim to the VLD's. Happy hunting to you and hope in the next month or so your wallet is stuffed full of Wyoming licenses!! I sure hope mine is!!!

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Good luck to you also and appreciate your opinion. Like I said earlier I am not trying to tell everybody do as I do. I am just relaying my experiences and people can make there own opinions. That is what this forum is for. I assure everyone that anything said on here is not going to bother me in any way and hope everyone feels the same about me. I will get up from the computer, go have fun with my family and friends, and quickly forget anything on here. I do appeciate all the friends I have made on here through the years and the many great hunts with guys on the forum from here to Alaska. Many of those hunts were with guys that we had fundamental disagreements on areas of shooting. But we all killed our animals dead and did what we do best and left the hunt best of friends..

 

[Pdvdh]

Hope you have continued success and good luck on your bear hunt this weekend. I have seen the bergers work perfect on elk just like you described. My point is on many occasions I have known them to not be dependable and blow into a zillion pieces not penetrating the vitals. The next shot is a pencil hole with very little expansion. It seems like there is no consistency. I shoot bergers in every caliber I own at caribou, deer, antelope and smaller critters but after seeing and knowing of so many elk lost to bergers because of inconsistent performance I will not shoot them at elk. It seems on one animal I get a complete pass through and another a complete blow up.

I've used Berger 210 VLDs for about 4 years now. I've already had one blow apart with unacceptable penetration, and one pass through without any expansion. Both incidents were reported in these Forums, for the benefit of other members. A photo of the exit wound on the skinned Dall ram from last year was provided in my post. My somewhat limited experiences mimic yours. I've also seen them drop black bear and Dall sheep as quickly as flipping off a light switch. Problem is, it's like the flip of a coin - heads or tails? Do they expand AND provide sufficient penetration to reach the vitals on large bodied game? Do the explode on impact? Or do they pass through without any expansion? No way am I going to flip coins by using them in pursuit of grizzly or brown bear.

The lightning like kills that the Berger bullets often provide are very thrilling in the field, and exciting to watch on film. Those kills are the result of the violent uncontrolled expansion of a very thinly jacketed lead bullet inside the game animal. Consistent with that type of violent expansion, they will, on occasion, shrapnel completely before reaching the vitals if some bone and/or muscle must be passed before reaching the vitals.

It doesn't bother me in the least if the bears I shoot run 50-100 yds before expiring from a solid hit with a controlled expansion bullet. As long as they're dead when I approach to retrieve them out of the alders. The Berger VLD and Hornady Amax are amongst my last choice of bullets for use on either wounded or healthy grizzly/brown bear at close range - let alone in the alders. Not because I know with absolute certainty they'll fail to perform in that setting. Rather, there are so many other controlled expansion bullets available that will reduce the odds of bullet failure, compared to the VLD and Amax. Bullets that perform so reliably, consistently, and repeatedly as to be boring.

 

[Speedo]

I've used Berger 210 VLDs for about 4 years now. I've already had one blow apart with unacceptable penetration, and one pass through without any expansion. Both incidents were reported in these Forums, for the benefit of other members. A photo of the exit wound on the skinned Dall ram from last year was provided in my post. My somewhat limited experiences mimic yours. I've also seen them drop black bear and Dall sheep as quickly as flipping off a light switch. Problem is, it's like the flip of a coin - heads or tails? Do they expand AND provide sufficient penetration to reach the vitals on large bodied game? Do the explode on impact? Or do they pass through without any expansion? No way am I going to flip coins by using them in pursuit of grizzly or brown bear.

The lightning like kills that the Berger bullets often provide are very thrilling in the field, and exciting to watch on film. Those kills are the result of the violent uncontrolled expansion of a very thinly jacketed lead bullet inside the game animal. Consistent with that type of violent expansion, they will, on occasion, shrapnel completely before reaching the vitals if some bone and/or muscle must be passed before reaching the vitals.

It doesn't bother me in the least if the bears I shoot run 50-100 yds before expiring from a solid hit with a controlled expansion bullet. As long as they're dead when I approach to retrieve them out of the alders. The Berger VLD and Hornady Amax are amongst my last choice of bullets for use on either wounded or healthy grizzly/brown bear at close range - let alone in the alders. Not because I know with absolute certainty they'll fail to perform in that setting. Rather, there are so many other controlled expansion bullets available that will reduce the odds of bullet failure, compared to the VLD and Amax. Bullets that perform so reliably, consistently, and repeatedly as to be boring.

I've had the occasion a couple of times to go into the alders after wounded grizzlies and the very last thing that I am concerned with in a bullet under those circumstances is a high bc. I use a 375 H & H with 300 gr Swift A-Frames and I have had good results with them. I'd rather not have to rely on a 2nd or 3rd shot in close quarters like that. I had a friend going into the alders after a wounded griz with me one time, he was shooting a 458 win mag in an Interarms, he fired at the griz as it charged him and the recoil unlatched the hinged floor plate and dumped the rest of the rounds on the ground. Fortunately the second round wasn't required to stop the bear.

Gus

 

[Broz]

I've had the occasion a couple of times to go into the alders after wounded grizzlies and the very last thing that I am concerned with in a bullet under those circumstances is a high bc. I use a 375 H & H with 300 gr Swift A-Frames and I have had good results with them. I'd rather not have to rely on a 2nd or 3rd shot in close quarters like that. I had a friend going into the alders after a wounded griz with me one time, he was shooting a 458 win mag in an Interarms, he fired at the griz as it charged him and the recoil unlatched the hinged floor plate and dumped the rest of the rounds on the ground. Fortunately the second round wasn't required to stop the bear.

Gus

I have read in this thread where so many are concerned with the danger in the recovery of the Griz in alders after they have been shot. I have no first hand experience hunting griz but something has sparked my interest here. Most of these concerns , ( and I am sure they are valid as they are coming from guys that have hunted griz for many years) but it seems the guys against VLD are the guys having to track down and shoot again. So may I ask what the first bullet put into this Griz was?

Thanks
Jeff

 

[Shooter264]

Here is one shot with a VLD, you tell me how far it had to be tracked!!! A good shot was made on a nice bear and a fantastic hunt

 

[Shooter264]

The fact of the matter is, no matter what bullet you use, if you make a bad shot you will be tracking it. 99.9% of the time if you place your shot correctly it will not matter what pill your using. Perhaps Nosler instead of Berger should have coined the phase "I shoot better, I shoot Nosler" Now that's funny!!

 

[str8shoot]

Broz.
You said it absolutely perfect. I have seen people make marginal hits on animals with "bonded" type bullets as well as VLD's. In my experience, I have repeatedly seen more animals successfully recovered with the VLD bullets on marginal hits as I have the "bonded". I do not buy into nor will I ever of the stories of " I shot the elk at 100 yards and hit him in the shoulder with my super wizz bang and the Darn VLD just blew up on his shoulder and he ran off to never be seen again". That is hogwash.

People are 100% correct on the bullet debates. Unless we have seen it all, who's to say who's right. It is always interesting to hear the stories about how a AB or Barnes penetrated 3 california redwood trees, 2 big granite boulders, and then made a complete pass through on a 17 foot wide Wapiti!! And those darn VLD bullets just blow up on the shoulders of field mice!!! That was meant to be a bit of humor but there are several people that I am sure will not see it that way!!

At the end of the day, shoot what you shoot well. After all who would have ever thunk that more polar bears have been killed with a 220 swift then the big magnums.

I used the bergers for 2 seasons and shot 4 elk with them. The first 3 were between 260-450 yards. They went down much like the bear in the video. The fourth was a shoulder shot at about 50 yards. It did blow up not reaching vitals. For you to call my claims and thousands others like them "hogwash" is insulting and naive. If you think bullet blow ups are a myth you are simply wrong. Just because you haven't experienced one yet, doesn't make it "hogwash".
If you make a habit of shooting elk in the shoulder at distances of 100 yards or less with VLD bullets, there is a good chance some day you will "buy these stories" that you seem to think myself and others made up.

I still like the VLDs for long range purposes but, for close shots at a tough critter like an elk (much less a griz) I would rather have a tougher bullet in my chamber. Further more, I will avoid the hard shoulder of an elk at close range in the future with any bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

99.9% of the time if you place your shot correctly it will not matter what pill your using. Perhaps Nosler instead of Berger should have coined the phase "I shoot better, I shoot Nosler" Now that's funny!!

If you've read my posts, you either don't believe them, or you're indifferent to others' experiences with on-game VLD performance because???... of a video of a grizzly bear killed with a VLD?

My two less than steller experiences have been with the 210 VLD from a .300 Win Mag. One Dall ram taken at ~ 355 yards: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f92/alaskan-dall-sheep-210-berger-vld-60791/

One black bear - finishing shot taken at ~ 8 yards:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-210-vld-black-bear-field-report-31392/

I'm not claiming the first shot on the Dall ram at 355 yards was placed in the most lethal location possible. That's more or less irrelevant to my statement that the bullet didn't expand following a complete pass-through of the entire broadside thickness of this Dall ram. In other words, I'm claiming the bullet didn't open up. I've seen the damage from an expanded VLD inside of a number of game animals. And now I've seen the lack of physical damage from this unexpanded one on this ram. Had the bullet expanded like the majority of the VLDs do, the ram would have dropped at the shot. How do I know? I've seen any number of them drop with similar hits using Nosler ballistic tip bullets that expanded.

What does 99.9% proper bullet performance mean after-the-fact based on my two negative experiences? Here's the math. (X-2) is the number of consecutive times I'd need to have the VLD perform as intended, to reach your 99.9% level of performance.

(X-2)/X = 0.999 X=2000

(X-2) = 1,998

If I obtain 1,998 proper performances with the VLDs going forward, I'd reach your 99.9% positive performance level. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Shooter264]

Where did you hit the elk in the shoulder?? Knuckle Joint? Are you sure it was the bullet to blame and not your shot placement?? I have going on 15 years of VLD experience on game and several animals per year. I have never seen a failure of the bullet, just failures to put the bullet in the correct spot. Sorry you are insulted but I am far from Naive. It is far easier to blame the bullet when we fail to retrieve our game then our own shot placement.

 

[Pdvdh]

So may I ask what the first bullet put into this Griz was?

Thanks
Jeff

I've shot 3 (no - 4 brown bear) and 1 grizzly bear. Observed another grizzly bear taken by a hunting buddy. Two of these bears needed finishing off. I didn't go into the alders to finish either of them. One was hit with a Barnes X bullet from a .458 Win Mag. Hit in the butt because the boar starting running at the same time the trigger broke. Distance about 80 yards. Hit on the far butt cheek, behind the pelvic plate and hip joint. A flesh wound. He ran into the closest patch of alders. We repositioned to our full advantage, and then started talking very loudly. The bear finally lost his nerve and bolted out into the open. We finished him off on the run with a volley of follow-up rounds.

The first hit on the other brown bear was a 160 gr Barnes X from a 7mm Rem Mag. The wind was blowing and the bullet clipped the back edge of the lungs, slightly to far back for a rapid death. He ran 1/4 before laying down on top of a large boulder, out on a wide open mountain side. He wouldn't have lasted too much longer, but we were able to reposition and finish him off.

To my way of thinking, your question could only produce meaningful conclusions if you also knew where the bears were first hit with the non-VLD bullet.

 

[Shooter264]

If you've read my posts, you either don't believe them, or you're indifferent to others' experiences with on-game VLD performance because???... of a video of a grizzly bear killed with a VLD?

My two less than steller experiences have been with the 210 VLD from a .300 Win Mag. One Dall ram taken at ~ 355 yards: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f92/alaskan-dall-sheep-210-berger-vld-60791/

One black bear - finishing shot taken at ~ 8 yards:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-210-vld-black-bear-field-report-31392/

I'm not claiming the first shot on the Dall ram at 355 yards was placed in the most lethal location possible. That's more or less irrelevant to my statement that the bullet didn't expand following a complete pass-through of the entire broadside thickness of this Dall ram. In other words, I'm claiming the bullet didn't open up. I've seen the damage from an expanded VLD inside of a number of game animals. And now I've seen the lack of physical damage from this unexpanded one on this ram. Had the bullet expanded like the majority of the VLDs do, the ram would have dropped at the shot. How do I know? I've seen any number of them drop with similar hits using Nosler ballistic tip bullets that expanded.

What does 99.9% proper bullet performance mean after-the-fact based on my two negative experiences? Here's the math. (X-2) is the number of consecutive times I'd need to have the VLD perform as intended, to reach your 99.9% level of performance.

(X-2)/X = 0.999 X=2000

(X-2) = 1,998

If I obtain 1,998 proper performances with the VLDs going forward, I'd reach your 99.9% positive performance level. Ain't gonna happen.

So if you would have placed your bullet correctly on the ram do you not think he would have died?? A shot through the lungs is going to be lethal any way you carve it. My statement above was that if you put your bullet in the vitals, your animal will be recovered (your 99% calculation). I don't mean to insult anyone, but with 4 experiences with VLD's after your Dall experience far from qualifies you as an expert in VLD bullet performance. "Of course I prefer a bullet that expands reliably on any solid body hit, 99% of the time. I've only shot about 4 large game animals with the 210 hunting VLDs to date, and I've already had one non-expander. Not what I was hoping for. "As for your bear you stated "I observed massive internal damage and the bear expired within seconds from this finishing shot. " Sounds like it worked good to me. If you were looking for an exit that in itself explains that you do not understand the theory behind the bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

It is far easier to blame the bullet when we fail to retrieve our game then our own shot placement.

And both of my game animals were retrieved. Field dressed and later processed at home - by me.

I'm not insulted. I'm establishing the fact that you're content to disregard others' experiences. Nothing personal here. I'm sticking to the facts.