Long range bullets for grizzly

[Pdvdh]

So if you would have placed your bullet correctly on the ram do you not think he would have died?? A shot through the lungs is going to be lethal any way you carve it. My statement above was that if you put your bullet in the vitals, your animal will be recovered (your 99% calculation). I don't mean to insult anyone, but with 4 experiences with VLD's after your Dall experience far from qualifies you as an expert in VLD bullet performance. "Of course I prefer a bullet that expands reliably on any solid body hit, 99% of the time. I've only shot about 4 large game animals with the 210 hunting VLDs to date, and I've already had one non-expander. Not what I was hoping for. "As for your bear you stated "I observed massive internal damage and the bear expired within seconds from this finishing shot. " Sounds like it worked good to me. If you were looking for an exit that in itself explains that you do not understand the theory behind the bullet.

My bullet on the ram was placed correctly. Right where I wanted it. Don't blame bullet placement for the failure of the bullet to expand.

A shot through the lungs with a non-expanding bullet may or may not be lethal. How can you know when the animal isn't retrieved, if it ended up being lethal or not? The same as how can you know the precise placement of the bullet without retrieval? And what good is a dead game animal if the length of time for the animal to expire means the animal isn't retrieved. I've related my experience with another Dall ram on this Forum, shot with another brand of bullet which also failed to expand. I shot the ram broadside at a distance of 13 yards - directly centering the lungs. This bullet didn't expand either. I watched the ram run down the mountainside and bed down a couple hundred yards away. I didn't shoot again for probably 20 minutes because I 'knew' the animal had to be running dead on its feet. I'd seen the red blood spot on the far side of the rib cage shortly after the shot. After way too much time had passed and the ram was still alive, I walked up to him. He was still able to jump up and charge off.

IF these rams - out on the wide open mountain sides had been bears - black, grizzly, or brown - which often are in close proximity to alders and brush, and which seem to have a much greater tenacity to cling on to life, I would most likely have lost two bears. There's very little option for a wounded Dall ram to escape from a competent long range rifleman. Which is why I'm willing to use a VLD on Dall rams, and not on grizzly bears or brown bears.

 

[Speedo]

I have read in this thread where so many are concerned with the danger in the recovery of the Griz in alders after they have been shot. I have no first hand experience hunting griz but something has sparked my interest here. Most of these concerns , ( and I am sure they are valid as they are coming from guys that have hunted griz for many years) but it seems the guys against VLD are the guys having to track down and shoot again. So may I ask what the first bullet put into this Griz was?

Thanks
Jeff

This particular bear was hit with a 270, I don't know what the actual bullet was. I was nearby when the bear was initally shot and I went along to recover the wounded griz since it was someone from our camp that shot it in the first place.

One of the problems with a wounded grizzly is that they will sometimes circle once in the brush to cover their back trail so that they can ambush their prusurers.

Gus

 

[Shooter264]

My bullet on the ram was placed correctly. Right where I wanted it. Don't blame bullet placement for the failure of the bullet to expand.

A shot through the lungs with a non-expanding bullet may or may not be lethal. How can you know when the animal isn't retrieved, if it ended up being lethal or not? The same as how can you know the precise placement of the bullet without retrieval? And what good is a dead game animal if the length of time for the animal to expire means the animal isn't retrieved. I've related my experience with another Dall ram on this Forum, shot with another brand of bullet which also failed to expand. I shot the ram broadside at a distance of 13 yards - directly centering the lungs. This bullet didn't expand either. I watched the ram run down the mountainside and bed down a couple hundred yards away. I didn't shoot again for probably 20 minutes because I 'knew' the animal had to be running dead on its feet. I'd seen the red blood spot on the far side of the rib cage shortly after the shot. After way too much time had passed and the ram was still alive, I walked up to him. He was still able to jump up and charge off.

IF these rams - out on the wide open mountain sides had been bears - black, grizzly, or brown - which often are in close proximity to alders and brush, and which seem to have a much greater tenacity to cling on to life, I would most likely have lost two bears. There's very little option for a wounded Dall ram to escape from a competent long range rifleman. Which is why I'm willing to use a VLD on Dall rams, and not on grizzly bears or brown bears.

Works for me. I am in no way telling you what to use on what. You do what you see fit. "I've related my experience with another Dall ram on this Forum, shot with another brand of bullet which also failed to expand. I shot the ram broadside at a distance of 13 yards - directly centering the lungs. This bullet didn't expand either." I am assuming because you didn't mention it that it was not a VLD?? So is it fair to say that you have the possiblility from time to time of ANY bullet not performing correctly? That it is not just a VLD problem?? I simply stated that I don't buy into the stories that's all. Like I said before I have been using VLD bullets for the last 15 years and have killed lots of critters, (Elk, Black Bear, Deer, Antelope) and have witnessed many others killed with VLD's (Sheep, Moose, Griz) and have never seen a failure. I have never failed to retrieve an animal that I shot at. I shoot thousands of rounds every year and I am sure that some day my time will come to where I do not retrieve an animal. Knock on wood I hope I never experience that but I guarantee you I will be blaming myself and not my projectile. I am very glad you were able to retrieve both animals as we owe it to them to make every effort to do so. As for your bullet placement on your ram, only you know if it was placed correctly. It's too hard to tell from your photos, I would say that if your ram was quartering to you at any degree it would not have contacted lungs. But I can't say that with any confidence.

 

[Shooter264]

This particular bear was hit with a 270, I don't know what the actual bullet was. I was nearby when the bear was initally shot and I went along to recover the wounded griz since it was someone from our camp that shot it in the first place.

One of the problems with a wounded grizzly is that they will sometimes circle once in the brush to cover their back trail so that they can ambush their prusurers.

Gus

Gus

Just be glad you live in a place where the Grizzlies have some fear of man. Come down to Wyoming for an elk hunt and find out how sneeky they are when they are not wounded!! So I just got back from a weekend of Black Bear hunting and basically in one full day of hunting we encountered 6 Grizzlies and 1 Black Bear. And down here in the lower 48 the Grizzlies are the ones endangered. That's like wiping before you Sh*$, it doesn't make any sense!!

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

CPGfan, the failure rate of berger bullets is quite high on large bull elk. The odds of you not having a failure in 15 years are amazing. I have seen them fail quite often and will not shoot them at large big game. I have made some amazing shots with bergers on caribou and antelope. Those can't get away. I am just saying from my experience a person shooting large big game with Berger vld's must understand and accept there will be some failures and animals lost. Many guys around here have already been through the 7mm 168 grain fad, lost to many bulls, and don't do that any more.

 

[elkaholic]

Where did you hit the elk in the shoulder?? Knuckle Joint? Are you sure it was the bullet to blame and not your shot placement?? I have going on 15 years of VLD experience on game and several animals per year. I have never seen a failure of the bullet, just failures to put the bullet in the correct spot. Sorry you are insulted but I am far from Naive. It is far easier to blame the bullet when we fail to retrieve our game then our own shot placement.

Are you stating that it might be a good bullet if we miss the knuckle joint but not so good if we hit it?

Phorwath, LTLR, STR8....I have had the exact experiences that you have. Several bang/flops and a couple of unneccessary disasters......Rich

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I just went back and looked at the grizzly video for the first time. That shot was right through the spine of the grizzly at the top of the shoulder. My 243 with about any bullet would give the same results with that shot and incapacitate the bear. That is the point I have made on here many times. If you stick to that shot, passing up animals until you get that perfect shot, and then are 100% sure you can make that shot every time, vld bullets are as good as any. For the average hunter wanting to come home with a trophy when they see it and not wanting to pass on shots, plus in the excitement may not be able to hit that small area, vlds are not a good idea for the hunt on large and dangerous big game aimals. A properly constructed big game bullet is a much better choice that has a much higher percentage of proper performance to make any shot presented.

The high shoulder shot is not a good idea for most hunters because it is a very difficult shot to make and the animal has to be positioned properly which is also low percentage in most hunts. From plenty of experience watching hunters try it most shoot high and miss or into the the center of the shoulder where the berger vld bullets have a history of blowing into a zillion pieces and the animal is lost. 99% of hunters are better with a tough, controled expansion bullet that can make any shot opportunity into larger kill areas on the animal and drive that bullet through to the vitals from any angle.

I can say with pretty strong odds the grizzly I shot last year I would not have killed if I had Berger vld bullets in my gun. First I would not have shot because the only shot I had was an angle the vld bullet probably would not have made. Second it would have been very low percentage at the most with a berger vld bullet and we definitely would have had a very mad wounded grizzly to deal with. I will not shoot at an animal with a low percentage shot, especially not a grizzly.

This goes back to what I was saying in the earlier post. Stacking all the odds in my favor. I came home with my grizzly because I had a Barnes ttsx bullet in my rifle that I was confident I could drive through that bear nearly lengthwise, break the offside shoulder, and anchor him in his tracks. Only a tough bullet could have done that. It was the only grizzly I saw on the trip and the only qick shot I was offered. I was able to take advantage of that quick opportunity at the angle I was offered and killed the bear. That is the way hunting is most times. I have my pictures, stories and bear skin with me. Hunters without the proper bullet to make that shot would have stories of the bear they saw or hit and lost. I am very succesful at hunting and situations like this is why many times I have my animal and others do not.

 

[Shooter264]

So at the end of the day everyone has their favorite bullets. Some have seen Noslers fail, some have seen Barnes fail, some have seen VLD's fail, and some have shot bears in the Butt. So whos' to say who's right, which I have posted in an earlier thread. Please by all means shoot what you wish. I would prefer if people did not shoot the VLD bullets because with no demand for such a crappy bullet, the price would go back down to where it was before the craze started. Sorry Swampy and Mr Stecker, just me being selfish for a moment.. I haven't seen the failures. LTLR have you personally witnessed " a high rate of failures" on big bulls? I don't think the 7mm 168's are a by gone fad, I believe that Berger is still cranking them out at a rapid rate. I personally have only killed one critter with a 7mm 168 and that was a Buffalo in Jackson in 2007. It worked good. Most of my VLD experiences are with 6.5 140's and 6mm 105's and in MY experiences they work very well. So this debate if we work real hard could last as long as the Ford Vs Chevy one, which by the way Chevy's are way better . I think I am done with this one, the adrealine rush is over, and if it wasn't for the everlasting pouring rain I would be doing something constructive. Thanks everyone for your opinions and your experiences, and if I run into on the hill I will be just as cordial as ever, no matter what you have stuffed in your magazine box.

 

[Shooter264]

One more quick post to LTLR. Thank you for stressing the fact that proper shot placement is key. If we know our limits we can successfully harvest almost everything we shoot at. We just have to be willing to pass on marginal shots and those that in our gut we do not feel are high percentage. The guy that I filmed shoot the grizzly is another one that shoots hundreds of rounds per year and he called that shot before he made it. Big trophies are great and I have a few, but first and foremost putting the bullet where we want it is key. The rest is out of our hands no matter the bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

"I've related my experience with another Dall ram on this Forum, shot with another brand of bullet which also failed to expand. I shot the ram broadside at a distance of 13 yards - directly centering the lungs. This bullet didn't expand either."[/COLOR] I am assuming because you didn't mention it that it was not a VLD?? So is it fair to say that you have the possiblility from time to time of ANY bullet not performing correctly? That it is not just a VLD problem??

Yes, that's a fair statement. I have first-hand experience with two Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets failing to expand on solid body hits. One on a Dall ram. One on a black bear. Here's two links to my Posts describing further detail and information on those incidents:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/not-so-happy-accubonds-34594/index8.html#post233131
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/effectiv-range-game-24163/index2.html#post165605

I had these expanding bullets fail to expand with solid body hits over my 40 years of hunting experiences:
Berger 210 grain VLD from a .300 Win Mag
Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip from a .280 RCBS Improved
Nosler 200 grain Ballistic Tip from a .338 Win Mag

These animals were all recovered despite a first shot hit with an expanding bullet that failed to expand.

One additional incident that I can't have complete confidence in was a black bear that was shot with a Hornady 162 grain Amax with a .280 RCBS Improved at 560 yards. I'm pretty sure that bear was lung shot and escaped. Whether that bear died or not, I'll never know. I've described that incident on one Forum or another, but I can't locate it here on LRH at this moment. A couple hours after that shot, I walked out and placed a target within 8 feet of where the black bear was standing and came back and shot twice more from the same location as my first shot. One bullet hit about 1 1/4" left. The second one hit about 3" left. Both were dead nutz on the mark for elevation.

This Thread seemed to get focused on the Berger VLDs, otherwise I would have provided this information on these incidents with other brands of expanding bullets. I'm not on a mission to slam Berger VLDs. I've shot quite a few animals with Nosler Ballistic Tips, so even with these two first-hand failures, they still have a pretty decent track record - based on my experiences. But I really don't use them too often anymore. I now prefer the Nosler Accubond. Never had one of them fail to expand yet.

Brands of expanding bullets I have used without having experienced any failures to expand on large game animals to date include:
Nosler Accubonds
Nosler Partitions
Jack Carter/Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws
Sierra .338 250 grain Boattail Soft Points
Speer Grand Slams
Barnes X and TSX

I've shot two large brown bears with the 225 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws from a .338 Imperial Magnum. Plain-Jane broadside lung shots proved absolutely devastating. The larger boar squared 10' 5" and dropped completely dead on impact. Not so much as a twitch. Probably more than 1000 lbs live weight. The second bear was the one that had been butt shot with the .458 Win Mag. Even with the bear's adrenaline pumping, another broadside shot through the middle of the ribcage knocked this boar off his feet - and he was never able to regain all fours. This bear probably weighed about 800 lbs. Only two incidents with these 225 grain TBBC's on large boars, but I am very impressed. Which is why I feel pretty good about using these bullets for my 'bear' and 'camp' loads.

Good shooting and hunting to all... gun)

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

CPGfan, We agree on trucks. Good luck in the draw and have a good season.

 

[Shooter264]

LTLR,
You too, save a big bull for me!! Another mid 180 buck would work too!!

 

[Speedo]

Just be glad you live in a place where the Grizzlies have some fear of man. Come down to Wyoming for an elk hunt and find out how sneeky they are when they are not wounded!! So I just got back from a weekend of Black Bear hunting and basically in one full day of hunting we encountered 6 Grizzlies and 1 Black Bear. And down here in the lower 48 the Grizzlies are the ones endangered. That's like wiping before you Sh*$, it doesn't make any sense!!

I've got a news flash for you, not all the bears in Alaska are afraid of man. The ones that are in areas where bears get hunted that might be the case but there are plenty of places where the bears have few if any encounters and therefore no fear of man. And if you think that encountering 6 grizzlies in a day is a big deal you are still out of touch.

Gus

 

[Pdvdh]

That looks like a place that needs bear hunted! Hate to have to camp out anywhere near there. End up like Timothy Treadwell and the girlfriend...