Side Arm for Grizzly Country

[remingtonman]

Kind of awkward holster for those things, but at least you didn't say 10mm.

pretty sure if a 9mm works a 10mm surely would also, only better.Check out this article.

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

 

[sea2summit]

pretty sure if a 9mm works a 10mm surely would also, only better.Check out this article.

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

Real men apparently fight them with knives so why don't you get rid of the 10mm

Black bear mauls Alyeska pipeline contract worker out for a run near pump station

The man fought the bear off, pulling out a pocket knife to help defend himself, a Fish and Game spokesman said. That may have saved his life.

www.adn.com

Love how everyone instantly goes to the 9mm "it's possible" stories as their first defense for 10mm. Call me a ***** but less than .44 I ain't going.

 

[sea2summit]

I've got a couple boxes of the s&b subs. I can't remember if they're 220 or 240, but they're fmj and I've seen them penetrate 30+ inches of a fresh cut birch stump I was shooting at. If they'll do that and come out the other side I have no doubt they'd penetrate deep on a bear. I think the low speed and fairly sharp point combine to give good penetration kind of like an arrow with a Broadhead.

View attachment 197687

Interesting, you must have different birch than I know about. Have fun.

 

[XSIVSPD]

Interesting, you must have different birch than I know about. Have fun.

Pretty sure they're pretty similar trees. There's more to penetration than just energy. A modern compound bow will out penetrate a 300rum/338lapua in water jugs. An old school recurve with 2blade old school broadheads will pass through a moose more reliably than a 30-06

 

[remingtonman]

Real men apparently fight them with knives so why don't you get rid of the 10mm

Black bear mauls Alyeska pipeline contract worker out for a run near pump station

The man fought the bear off, pulling out a pocket knife to help defend himself, a Fish and Game spokesman said. That may have saved his life.

www.adn.com

Real men apparently fight them with knives so why don't you get rid of the 10mm

Because I learned to never bring a knife to gun fight

 

[sea2summit]

Pretty sure they're pretty similar trees. There's more to penetration than just energy. A modern compound bow will out penetrate a 300rum/338lapua in water jugs. An old school recurve with 2blade old school broadheads will pass through a moose more reliably than a 30-06

Sectional density isn't a huge mystery, Mass over cross section area. With bullets you don't have the length required to get great SD so you have to use the multiplier of 7000 on your cross section area. Googled random arrow and it's SD was .543, your blackout 220 grain would be a .163 compared to a 9mm at about .9, a 338 250 grain is about .31 so yeah an arrow will out penetrate all of them. Applying that math to penetration based on velocity and expansion becomes very difficult depending on the medium. If you put one shot through 30" of semi hardwood that's a hell of a feat.

ETA, had to go to the google box but these rounds were made specifically with a very high SD so they could travel through water which most bullets have a very hard time with.

 

[sea2summit]

Because I learned to never bring a knife to gun fight

Wait, thought we were talking about a bear fight?

 

[XSIVSPD]

Googled random arrow and it's SD was .543, your blackout 220 grain would be a .163 compared to a 9mm at about .9, a 338 250 grain is about .31 so yeah an arrow will out penetrate all of them. Applying that math to penetration based on velocity and expansion becomes very difficult depending on the medium. If you put one shot through 30" of semi hardwood that's a hell of a feat.

I think you're doing the math wrong if you have a 9mm pistol bullet at 0.9sd and a 308 220gr at 0.163sd... I see it at 0.331sd (better than your 338 example) the fmj subs don't expand so they remain pointed and keep penetrating. I have one somewhere that I shot throy 3/4 ply and into wet phone books to capture it. The tip was slightly bent, but I could have Reloaded it lol. Maybe you were shooting something that expanded or mushroomed? Or maybe your foxes are tougher than the average bear?

 

[sea2summit]

I think you're doing the math wrong if you have a 9mm pistol bullet at 0.9sd and a 308 220gr at 0.163sd... I see it at 0.331sd (better than your 338 example) the fmj subs don't expand so they remain pointed and keep penetrating. I have one somewhere that I shot throy 3/4 ply and into wet phone books to capture it. The tip was slightly bent, but I could have Reloaded it lol. Maybe you were shooting something that expanded or mushroomed? Or maybe your foxes are tougher than the average bear?View attachment 197702

Your using data for a BTHP, that will be much longer than a FMJ and give you that better SD. S&B lists theirs at .31 so maybe I crossed some numbers. Regardless, it's still not a mystery.

It put a hole in fox and bobcat but that's all it seemed to do and they'd run away and be unrecovered or recovered days later by the dogs. That's not okay with me so I went back to 5.56 and back to having them DRT.

 

[XSIVSPD]

Your using data for a BTHP, that will be much longer than a FMJ and give you that better SD. S&B lists theirs at .31 so maybe I crossed some numbers. Regardless, it's still not a mystery.

It put a hole in fox and bobcat but that's all it seemed to do and they'd run away and be unrecovered or recovered days later by the dogs. That's not okay with me so I went back to 5.56 and back to having them DRT.

That penetration is exactly why I'd use them for bear defense. I don't need expansion or hydrostatic shock, I need the best chance of a CNS hit or to penetrate that hard front skull plate if it's charging me. That's the only way to stop it instantly. Short of a CNS hit, I want that penetration to have a chance to break as many bones as possible

 

[sea2summit]

That penetration is exactly why I'd use them for bear defense. I don't need expansion or hydrostatic shock, I need the best chance of a CNS hit or to penetrate that hard front skull plate if it's charging me. That's the only way to stop it instantly

I get what your saying I just don't think you've got the energy to do what you're trying to do with a 300 BO.

Using just SD your blackout should smoke a .44 on gel but the .44 will consistently penetrate farther across most rounds. Energy/velocity has to come in to play somewhere.

 

[XSIVSPD]

Energy/velocity has to come in to play somewhere.

You're right, and I don't think it's realistic to expect it to break heavy bones in the rear end of a bear after entering the front. I do expect that any bones in the front half of a bear wouldn't stand up to it though. I just feel that KE is given far to much importance when it comes to killing things. There's too many other factors. You can have 2000ftlbs energy but if it's the size/shape/density of an empty milk jug all it will do is sting a little... But a bow that produces <150lbs point blank will easily kill a deer or caribou at 100yds and do it humanely.

A 220 swift with a 40gr vmax @4250fps has 1600lbft at the muzzle. would you trust it to go through the forehead plate of a bear at 10yds?

This from the closest bullet I can find to what I have:

 

[DMP25-06]

After reading 22 pages of replies and suggestions , that began as a respectful discussion of personal choices , that then regressed to insults and personal attacks , then became a pi**ing contest , I will add a choice to the "totally ridiculous" column of bear defense suggestions .

I have not yet seen anyone suggest a 1928-A1 Thompson sub-machine gun with a 50 round drum of 230 gr. FMJ .45 ACP cartridges . 50 rounds in just over 4 seconds , and I have shot this combination into the front grille of an automobile , through the radiator , condenser ,firewall , dash and instrument cluster , through the front and back seats , into and out-of the trunk , and watch them go skipping across the pasture and out of sight . Penetration , NO problem . And VERY accurate .

Ultimately , there have been numerous good suggestions , but whatever you choose , practice , practice , practice .

 

[sea2summit]

You're right, and I don't think it's realistic to expect it to break heavy bones in the rear end of a bear after entering the front. I do expect that any bones in the front half of a bear wouldn't stand up to it though. I just feel that KE is given far to much importance when it comes to killing things. There's too many other factors. You can have 2000ftlbs energy but if it's the size/shape/density of an empty milk jug all it will do is sting a little... But a bow that produces <150lbs point blank will easily kill a deer or caribou at 100yds and do it humanely.

A 220 swift with a 40gr vmax @4250fps has 1600lbft at the muzzle. would you trust it to go through the forehead plate of a bear at 10yds?

This from the closest bullet I can find to what I have:
View attachment 197718

If an empty mil jug weighs 466 grains it would have to travel at almost 950 mph, almost 200ph faster than the speed of sound, to get 2,000 ft lbs of energy which I'm pretty sure would be a little more than a "sting"...

Natives were hunting polar bears for a long time with .22 hornet pistols...doesn't mean I'd do it. And as for the VMAX, I started shooting them only six months ago but have taken about twelve hogs and must say I'm very impressed.

But anyway. The 300 SD discussion does bring some important information to the discussion. One of the touted things with the Glocks is the penetration of the Buffalo Bore ammo but it has a very low SD. Want to say less than .2. It does great in penetration tests because it's moving fast but another problem with low SD is it doesn't track well once it changes media so the likelihood of it changing course when it strikes bone/hair is greater than say a comparable .357 with similar weight/velocity/energy. Just a fun fact.