Reloading- What pressure signs do you stop at?

[villagelightsmith]

I had this aquaintance ... what the heck ... it won't hurt now to call him a friend ... who thought it was best to learn "old school," which in his mind meant "without books and printed recipes." Nor doctors; claimed they "didn't know nothing." I fired one (1) of his handgun loads, a .44xGod Knows What. Once. 3 days later my doctor explained "acoustic trauma" to me. Mike measured his loads' upper limits by blown primers, little black holes just forward of his case heads, and whether somebody had to stand on the bolt handle to rotate the thing. Then he backed off a half a hair. "That's safe enough." He never had a chrony or a micrometer... wouldn't trust 'the chrony, and I don't know if he could read the mic. The couple of times I shot with him we were at informal mountain shooting areas. In my own defense, I gave him plenty of room. "JD's funny that way ..." I went along to "witness the mechanism of injury" and get help if need be. He dosed his meds, insulin and cardiovascular stuff by how he felt. A bit of "alkyhoil" was generally in the mix. I knew his recipes were never close to right, but he was only wrong once. And that time he never woke up. Yes, his kind still exist, however briefly. The one thing I learned from him was that he would never learn anything from me. What a mess! You can't save 'em all.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

I stop at heavy bolt lift, ejector marks, primer flattening depending on primer brand, and ignore primer cratering, as I have two Rem 700's that crater primers no matter what. Now if they show up on a non Rem 700, I'll pay attention.

Everything ^^^^^ except primer flattening. Started ignoring that 25 years ago, and I'm still here.

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

If I didn't share my screw-ups…I'd have nutt'n to talk about! memtb

Not sharing mine. I'd get tossed off the site.

 

[memtb]

Not sharing mine. I'd get tossed off the site.

Once that happens…we can start our on forum with folks that have messed-up and will be honest about it! memtb

 

[Rosebud]

I can see the counseling sessions now. Hi, my names Joe, I blow the crap out of guns!

 

[Idaho Lefty]

I imagine some of the talk about hammering bolts open was made in jest. At least I hope it was.

NOPE,. IT, "Happened" to me with, some JB Bore cleaner "Residue", still in the Barrel and I thought that, I'd LOST my New, 6.5 Creed, Rifle.
It was the First shot ( AFTER, a poor Cleaning, job ! ) with, a NEAR Max Load of, StaBall 65 ( 43.1 grains / Petersen Brass ) and 143 gr. ELD-X's.
Beat on it, till my Palm Hurt, Found a 2x4 in back of, my Truck and, it, Finally,.. opened,.. T'was, a Heart stopping, Moment !
Field Cleaned it, some more and it shot Fine with, NO other "Issues",.. PHEW !
I've been Reloading since, the late 1950's and AVOID all, the "Normal" Pressure "Sign's" and, back off from a 1/2 to, a full Grain once, "some" Pressure,.. is Found.

 

[memtb]

Confessions are good for the soul……they make you stronger, more confident. That confidence can help you add …..just - more - grain! memtb

 

[Stammster2]

338 Lapua with the 3rd round powder swapped out to pistol powder

 

[Calvin45]

I can see the counseling sessions now. Hi, my names Joe, I blow the crap out of guns!

this joe character I imagine to be wearing an eyepatch, a slinged up arm, missing his front teeth, and his left hand missing two fingers and completely covered in bandages

 

[Window]

Are you certain that you didn't have a bore obstruction?

I had similar experience, though only a .223 REM. First round (and only) fired of the day. The little rifle actually kicked a bit, and the benefits of the receiver/action vents (lots of smoke from the action area) were very apparent and appreciate! I took it to a gunsmith to open the bolt, once opened, the case now had a nice belt (looked just like a belted magnum case). The extractor had to be replaced….no other apparent damage to the rifle.

I pulled the bullets from that remaining cartridges and weighed each and every one….all was in order. This was a well proven load, and I've since fired hundreds more using the same load!

This one remains a "head scratcher"! memtb

Yes Sir, there was no obstruction. I'm about as anal as they come and always pull the bolt and check before shooting. When I got home, I pulled the remaining 11 and everything was perfect. Looking back, the only thing I can think of is maybe I didn't run a dry patch through it once we got there. I store all my rifles barrels down with a light coat of break free clp in them.

 

[Teri Anne]

Dear safety Steve, we ask politely that you sit this one out. Or, just limit your input to photographic evidence...

What pressure signs do you stop at?

This question is for the guys who want the most out of velocity. I have rifles that I don't push and just shoot for accuracy even if it is well below the max. I have a couple that I like to push to the max. So, where do you maverick's draw the line with pressure signs. Is it when primers begin to flatten, completely flatten, crater primers, hard bolt lift, ejector marks, swipe, etc.. I know there are false pressure signs, please include experience with that.

Rules for answering:
Rule number one: Safety First
Rule number two: Lets hear real world experience, not ethics or safety Steve ranting about not testing boundaries.
Rule number three: Let the dragon breath!

After reading some of the comments I am somewhat disappointed at the responses to this critical issue. Overpressure is dangerous and should not be taken lightly. I rarely run into pressure issues of any kind because I do not load to see how fast I can make the bullet go, I load to make the bullet shoot in teeny tiny groups which most do the best with loads nowhere near max pressure.

A couple of years ago one of my rifle students decided she wanted to try reloading. She was shooting an AR of a well known and good reputation. When it came to the powder charge I asked her what charge she would use for the AR Comp powder we were loading. She of course chose the max. We discussed this and settled on 0.5 gr below the max listed which should have been still a safe load. When we went out to the range to shoot her reloaded ammo for some reason after the second shot I checked the ejected case to find that the primer was not only flattened but had blown the area of the primer strike back out pushing metal back into the firing pin hole. We stopped using that ammo and I gave her a box of commercial 5.56 to shoot. It of course shot normal confirming the issue with the powder charge. Anyway back at the loading bench pulled the bullets, rechecked the charge loaded on both digital and balance scales. The charge was correct but it was obviously not a safe one for her rifle. How many people take a look at the cases when shooting, especially AR type firearms? Might be something you want to put on your to do list when shooting reloads. Safety First, Velocity Last.

 

[milo-2]

You cannot be into pressure w/o expanding your primer pockets on normal brass. I have read some claims about Alpha brass that concerned me when read.
To me, this is as easy as figuring out a safe speed with all the components used, and equipment used, barrel length high on this list.
There should be some data out there to assist, but no data can account for bore diameter, chamber diameter and length, lot of powder used etc....
Chrono'ing start to finish IMO a must, and a pressure test, whatever method used for load development does not have to be accomplished in one setting. Shoot some test strings, monitor the brass, you may be low of expectations, spot on, or over and not encounter any visible signs.

What I do, is fire few in what I call a modified ladder at whatever distance I feel like is the minimum distance I want almost all vertical dispersion removed. I will then go home and decap fired primers from the brass(new) with a universal decapper, and a press where I can feel what is going on. When the primers no longer Pop out, and just slide out, you have went too far, easy to feel. If the rifle barrel is new, with new brass and you have gone way too far, you are going to be substantially over pressure with fired brass and after a barrel speed up.

There are far too many false pressure signs firing new brass. New brass grows in the shoulder area an average of .004-006", at .005" in growth, bolt slap seems immanent, which of course will flatten primers and can yield ejector marks. The primer is the weak link anytime powder ignites, and the primer tries to exit the case, so it is not always case pressures alone that create flat primers.
Some people measure case heads for growth-pocket expansion, or pocket gauges, but to me using primer pockets as the gauge is a fool proof way to determine if your load pressure exceeds the platform capabilities. Platform being all parameters involved.
I don't care what anyone runs for pressures, as long as the gun doesn't come apart around me. But ruining primer pockets in 3 firings, compared to 8 firing before you recycle this brass is a big difference.

Note: I am not totally going off primer pocket size, I am searching for published data, Quickload data, based off my chrono readings.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Safety First, Velocity Last.

When I was working in a furniture manufacturing company a safety person came to our company. All supervisors and some office personnel were required to be in the meeting room. The first question asked was, "What is the first priority here?" Everyone except the accountant and I said safety. The safety person noticed and asked me, "What's the first priority to you?" Of course I told him, "Our first priority is make a profit. If there is no profit, we don't have a company in which to work safely." The accountant agreed.

As a reloader my first priority is fun. I do that safely. I did the same thing since 1962 when I switched from 180 grainers in the .30-06 to 125 grainers. Right then I became a velocity first guy. As far as safety I just did what the sporting goods owner told me to do.

The only time I had a bolt that needed to be beat open was maybe fifteen years later when I was going to fire-form some loads. A magazine article suggested I use cream of wheat on top of a light load of pistol powder. I weighed the amount of cream of wheat and added it to the weight of the 125 grain bullet. What a joke! After that I figured the magazine writers didn't know anymore than my neighbor who didn't like guns. I started using fiberfill women use when making pillows. Never had anymore trouble. But I do keep a one pound dead blow hammer in my shooting kit.

 

[Boss Hoss]

You cannot be into pressure w/o expanding your primer pockets on normal brass. I have read some claims about Alpha brass that concerned me when read.
To me, this is as easy as figuring out a safe speed with all the components used, and equipment used, barrel length high on this list.
There should be some data out there to assist, but no data can account for bore diameter, chamber diameter and length, lot of powder used etc....
Chrono'ing start to finish IMO a must, and a pressure test, whatever method used for load development does not have to be accomplished in one setting. Shoot some test strings, monitor the brass, you may be low of expectations, spot on, or over and not encounter any visible signs.

What I do, is fire few in what I call a modified ladder at whatever distance I feel like is the minimum distance I want almost all vertical dispersion removed. I will then go home and decap fired primers from the brass(new) with a universal decapper, and a press where I can feel what is going on. When the primers no longer Pop out, and just slide out, you have went too far, easy to feel. If the rifle barrel is new, with new brass and you have gone way too far, you are going to be substantially over pressure with fired brass and after a barrel speed up.

There are far too many false pressure signs firing new brass. New brass grows in the shoulder area an average of .004-006", at .005" in growth, bolt slap seems immanent, which of course will flatten primers and can yield ejector marks. The primer is the weak link anytime powder ignites, and the primer tries to exit the case, so it is not always case pressures alone that create flat primers.
Some people measure case heads for growth-pocket expansion, or pocket gauges, but to me using primer pockets as the gauge is a fool proof way to determine if your load pressure exceeds the platform capabilities. Platform being all parameters involved.
I don't care what anyone runs for pressures, as long as the gun doesn't come apart around me. But ruining primer pockets in 3 firings, compared to 8 firing before you recycle this brass is a big difference.

Note: I am not totally going off primer pocket size, I am searching for published data, Quickload data, based off my chrono readings.

Well as you know there is no free lunch when pushing a cartridge to max pressures and beyond. It is not good for accuracy which is what I am after. People should understand this but many just do not care.