My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

No it's not. That is my bullet, that I pulled out of the neck of an elk I shot at 883 yards with a .338 Norma mag using the 270 SBD at 2830 fps muzzle velocity, impact was at 2113 fps. I also took that picture. Page 6 of this thread.

My apologies. I got this secondhand, obviously, and that was what I was told. That's awesome you were the one that shot it. Thank you for the clarification. I'd say if this is 2113fps, that's even worse than I thought. I'll be sure to read through that post. Thanks for the correction!
 
No it's not. That is my bullet, that I pulled out of the neck of an elk I shot at 883 yards with a .338 Norma mag using the 270 SBD at 2830 fps muzzle velocity, impact was at 2113 fps. I also took that picture. Page 6 of this thread.

I am glad you joined us.
 
I am glad you joined us.
Thanks! I think overall it's been great. There's always going to be difference of opinions and hunters are indeed a proud people lol. I think it's been great to put heads together and discuss ways to ultimately increase the success of everyone out there hunting. To me, that's what it's all about. I could care less about brand loyalty or anything like that. I just want what works great and is humane to the animals I'm hunting. I think we all do.
 
My apologies. I got this secondhand, obviously, and that was what I was told. That's awesome you were the one that shot it. Thank you for the clarification. I'd say if this is 2113fps, that's even worse than I thought. I'll be sure to read through that post. Thanks for the correction!
No problem, just figured I would help ensure correct data. I will say, that bullet was rather an anomaly, if you read that full thread you will understand. The elk did drop in it's tracks, but it was a neck/spine hit, so not much to judge on the terminal performance side
 
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No problem, just figured I would help ensure correct data. I will say, that bullet was rather an anomaly, if you read that rull thread you will understand. The elk did drop in it's tracks, but it was a neck/spine hit, so not much to judge on the terminal performance side
Right, I definitely appreciate getting the right information lol.

Yes, anomalies do happen, unfortunately, and no bullet is safe from them either. Im just glad it did happen to hit where it did so you were able to recover him like you did. Well done.
 
I'm not new to the mono copper concept, but after suffering poor performance (akin to penciling) with the original Barnes bullets, I was reluctant to get back on that horse.

In the 20 or so years since, I have come to learn that not all bullets are equal. Even if they are in the same 'line'. For example, a 30cal 165 gr Accubond and a 7mm 160gr Accubond - very similar bullets, very different performance in my hands. At moderate impact velocity (~2500fps), the 30cal 165er expands well on deer sized game, but, as evidenced by permanent wound channels, the 7mm 160gr does not.

Nosler partitions are another example. I have a fair bit of experience with the 30cal offerings, but take the 180gr and the 200gr for instance. Given similar target resistance and similar impact velocities, those two perform quite differently. I have caught several 180's on the offside of a moose. Never caught a 200, and have sent them lengthwise through an elk on 2 occasions.

When it comes to the 'type' of bullet, I have learned that generalizations CAN be made, but they don't always hold true in the real world.

Nathan Foster gets into the individual performance of specific bullets a bit on his site;

ballisticstudies.net

I know he has been mentioned, but the reference is worth repeating because it's a quality resource, in my opinion.


So... What has this got to do with MONO's?


I don't think it's fair, for instance, to compare Hammers with Barnes. I have used both, and while yes, both are made of copper, the similarities end there.

Where internal ballistics are concerned, Barnes build more pressure than conventional bullets - it's tough to get the same velocity with Barnes as one would with a conventional bullets of the same weight.

Hammers are the opposite. Due to the PDR drive bands, the hammers experience less resistance when engaging the lands and can be pushed to higher velocities with the same peak pressure.

When it comes to terminal performance, above 1800fps, hammers behave more like a Nosler partition than 'mono'.

You will notice Hammers always shed their petals. Barnes not so much.

The 'shedding petal' thing seems to be unique (among copper bullets) to the Hammers. This leads us to 'cavitation' which is a subset of Hydraulic shock.

I understand great pains were taken engineering the petals to shear off leaving the shank as flat as possible.

Based in part on the research here;

^^^ Link

(Another fantastic resource)

My understanding is that careful materials selection, by Hammer, and attention to cooling during machining are prerequisite.

I don't know the specifics, but copper is susceptible to work hardening during drawing and machining.To keep copper soft, it needs to be slow-drawn, annealed and have careful attention to cooling during the machining phase.

Hammer has their materials selection and process dialed in, and as a result, their products are very different from 'the other guys'.

I drank the Hammer kool-aid for the first time last year - only a handful of ungulates taken thus far, but I like what I see.

~3000fps impact velocity, lungs completely liquified

20201118_164839~(1)~(1).jpg

Yet very little meat damage. Exit wound butterfly

20201120_200419~(1).jpg

Here are some mule deer lungs from a longer shot. Impact velocity ~2500fps.

20201127_194542~(1).jpg

Not liquified, but severely torn up. Good terminal performance across a wide velocity window.

'pill' was .284 140gr Absolute Hammer

Anyhow, this post is getting long, my main point was that generalizations are dangerous and we shouldn't lump all copper bullets together.

Maybe we could start with like 3 categories, like;

-fragmenting

-expanding but not fragmenting

-non-expanding

...and go from there?
 
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I'm not new to the mono copper concept, but after suffering poor performance (akin to penciling) with the original Barnes bullets, I was reluctant to get back on that horse.

In the 20 or so years since, I have come to learn that not all bullets are equal. Even if they are in the same 'line'. For example, a 30cal 165 gr Accubond and a 7mm 160gr Accubond - very similar bullets, very different performance in my hands. At moderate impact velocity (~2500fps), the 30cal 165er expands well on deer sized game, but, as evidenced by permanent wound channels, the 7mm 160gr does not.

Nosler partitions are another example. I have a fair bit of experience with the 30cal offerings, but take the 180gr and the 200gr for instance. Given similar target resistance and similar impact velocities, those two perform quite differently. I have caught several 180's on the offside of a moose. Never caught a 200, and have sent them lengthwise through an elk on 2 occasions.

When it comes to the 'type' of bullet, I have learned that generalizations CAN be made, but they don't always hold true in the real world.

Nathan Foster gets into the individual performance of specific bullets a bit on his site;

ballisticstudies.net

I know he has been mentioned, but the reference is worth repeating because it's a quality resource, in my opinion.


So... What has this got to do with MONO's?


I don't think it's fair, for instance, to compare Hammers with Barnes. I have used both, and while yes, both are made of copper, the similarities end there.

Where internal ballistics are concerned, Barnes build more pressure than conventional bullets - it's tough to get the same velocity with Barnes as one would with a conventional bullets of the same weight.

Hammers are the opposite. Due to the PDR drive bands, the hammers experience less resistance when engaging the lands and can be pushed to higher velocities with the same peak pressure.

When it comes to terminal performance, above 1800fps, hammers behave more like a Nosler partition than 'mono'.

You will notice Hammers always shed their petals. Barnes not so much.

The 'shedding petal' thing seems to be unique (among copper bullets) to the Hammers. This leads us to 'cavitation' which is a subset of Hydraulic shock.

I understand great pains were taken engineering the petals to shear off leaving the shank as flat as possible.

Based in part on the research here;

^^^ Link

(Another fantastic resource)

My understanding is that careful materials selection, by Hammer, and attention to cooling during machining are prerequisite.

I don't know the specifics, but copper is susceptible to work hardening during drawing and machining.To keep copper soft, it needs to be slow-drawn, annealed and have careful attention to cooling during the machining phase.

Hammer has their materials selection and process dialed in, and as a result, their products are very different from 'the other guys'.

I drank the Hammer kool-aid for the first time last year - only a handful of ungulates taken thus far, but I like what I see.

~3000fps impact velocity, lungs completely liquified

View attachment 309715

Yet very little meat damage. Exit wound butterfly

View attachment 309713

Here are some mule deer lungs from a longer shot. Impact velocity ~2500fps.

View attachment 309714

Not liquified, but severely torn up. Good terminal performance across a wide velocity window.

'pill' was .284 140gr Absolute Hammer

Anyhow, this post is getting long, my main point was that generalizations are dangerous and we shouldn't lump all copper bullets together.

Maybe we could start with like 3 categories, like;

-fragmenting

-expanding but not fragmenting

-non-expanding

...and go from there?
I guess so much from moving on from Hammers 😂🤷🏼‍♂️.

I'm not sure who's been making the generalizations you're referring to. Yes, there are definite differences with several different solids, there's a lot of similarities too. There's a lot of differences in cup and core bullets too, as well as a lot of similarities. I've made another post showing a lot of those similarities and differences regarding cup and core bullets.

There are other solids similar to Hammers too. Badlands are one example, the new Hornady CX are another, although I don't think the CX are turned from the start. And while Hammers and others aren't exactly the same as Barnes, they perform ultimately similar in the grand scheme of things. Are the the exact same terminal performance? No.

Nathan Foster is indeed a fantastic source and a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Ironically, he's also not a big fan of solids either lol.

All metals work harden, Sind just do it a bit differently or at a different rate than others. Copper definitely does, as does brass. I've been a part of making brass cartridges and they get annealed and drawn out in a series. Copper jackets do too. I've seen that process first hand as well watching bullets get made at Sierra. I've also made my own jacketed bullets. I've not been to Hammer, however, and seem their process. I definitely would love to though. You may be right that they take extra steps to get the hardness just right during the manufacturing stages. Barnes are also cast, not turned.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that they do what they're supposed to when used within their limits and with good shot placement.

Your examples with bullets like the Accubonds are just like I talked about with matching bullet construction with sectional density and shot placement to get best terminal performance. That's how it's worked in my experience as well.

Again, this seems to just be more reiteration of the same points already made. That said, I still appreciate you sharing your experience, along with the pictures and links. Thanks for that.
 
I guess so much from moving on from Hammers 😂🤷🏼‍♂️.

I'm not sure who's been making the generalizations you're referring to. Yes, there are definite differences with several different solids, there's a lot of similarities too. There's a lot of differences in cup and core bullets too, as well as a lot of similarities. I've made another post showing a lot of those similarities and differences regarding cup and core bullets.

There are other solids similar to Hammers too. Badlands are one example, the new Hornady CX are another, although I don't think the CX are turned from the start. And while Hammers and others aren't exactly the same as Barnes, they perform ultimately similar in the grand scheme of things. Are the the exact same terminal performance? No.

Nathan Foster is indeed a fantastic source and a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Ironically, he's also not a big fan of solids either lol.

All metals work harden, Sind just do it a bit differently or at a different rate than others. Copper definitely does, as does brass. I've been a part of making brass cartridges and they get annealed and drawn out in a series. Copper jackets do too. I've seen that process first hand as well watching bullets get made at Sierra. I've also made my own jacketed bullets. I've not been to Hammer, however, and seem their process. I definitely would love to though. You may be right that they take extra steps to get the hardness just right during the manufacturing stages. Barnes are also cast, not turned.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that they do what they're supposed to when used within their limits and with good shot placement.

Your examples with bullets like the Accubonds are just like I talked about with matching bullet construction with sectional density and shot placement to get best terminal performance. That's how it's worked in my experience as well.

Again, this seems to just be more reiteration of the same points already made. That said, I still appreciate you sharing your experience, along with the pictures and links. Thanks for that.
Thanks for your efforts here, Petey, I have been following all of your threads here

That was in fact my attempt at synthesizing a new direction for the conversation, but maybe I should stick to music production...

'Fragmenting' and 'expanding but not fragmenting' bullets are 'ultimately similar'?

No interest in cavitation? (Maybe I missed where that was covered)

That's ok, I'll just 'step away'.

Thank you for the informative posts. Carry on 👍
 
You act as though you're holding back in a lot of your posts, Fordy. It feels like you're testing us by your tone. Feel free to pour out what you have. I think we're all here to learn. I'm not an expert either.
Gday petey308/ feenix & anyone else that is interested
The way I've learnt to "act " is yes I do hold back some info
This is for a few reasons

1st & most applicable: morals !!! For me I won't divulge what I no about a particular brand or person when I've been given insight into that particular brand or person
its being true to my word & please don't assume this is hammers only

2 nd you try running on 2 to 4 hrs sleep a day as that's what my life is @ the moment

3rd part
I need to see what part you are upto as if I get to far ahead you will not understand the journey in making the claims I do & I suppose that leads us to another part & that's credibility yes I've been questioned heaps on that & for the reasons Gltaylor said is correct but let's clear this up & I'll still hold back

I've noticed petey308 you quoted 9k of animals from you & other individuals as a data base

I don't put numbers up or out as most people call BS ( I call it wank factor) like I'm sure happened on H.T when I joined up due to the questions I was asked but little by little I let people in & the truth slowly becomes apparent

Numbers na I won't put them up but let's go back to that 9 k
I've got that covered many many times over & I've got mates that have me covered easily yet their not anal on searching on how /why a projectile kills like me

I don't even like this post now as it's just gone to wank factor elite but I'll move on & do what I said I would do

I found my Barnes pill out of my ginger

I'll post that up shortly as my bitching is done
Take me as you like but please I'm no expert or guru
Cheers
 
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