My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[Northkill]

Gday northkill

Interesting to some , muppet to others
Ultimately I like to know why things happen & this is not only terminally as many parts of my life have contained this ( still do ) & if I can increase preformance &or lower the chances of failure I'm happy but failure is also part of life & I've done that plenty of times & seen the problems it causes , it's why I've learnt so much (yes in my eyes ) as I'm not scared to fail just do some stupid stuff to find lines in the sand & I'm a sucker for the truth

Really I'm only a Jack of all trades a master of none & the guys who know me understand this the best of what I'm really good @ picking up quickly other things I'm so slow on the uptake it's ridiculous

I'll give help where I can & ask a lot of questions to further my / others understanding ( not so much here as I don't like trying to enter a game of Tug a war when only one side is holding the rope but openly debate / learn when it can be civilised & not gutter related or agenda based like so many do here ( I'm trying to be respectful just putting forward how I see this place ) ) I really don't go much on conflict but can give as good as I get

I've been blessed to have been able to do wHat I've done & to a way lesser extent still do these days ( my body just can't handle it anymore but mind is still willing)
It's what I've got @ my fingertips that I'm trying to share with as many people as possible to help them with their dreams ( heaven forbid I've even got bow hunters joining in now long story but if information can be gained by them why not as I'm not a bow hunter & never will but the critters have to be taken out anyway so why not allow others to have fun / learn & teach me another side of killing efficiently in more detail with field data yep helping ea other I like )


Anyway how's that for being a bit weird / interesting but that's me & I treat everyone the same way when I meet them with a firm handshake

Always a spot around my campfire for nice people especially if they are willing to learn / teach & have fun

Never stop dreaming as dreams are meant to come true right or wishes same dog different leg action lol

Cheers

Honestly, I'd be honored to be at your campfire.

 

[Unobtanium]

I have not read the thread fully, but have shot white tail deer here in the midwest (80-160#) with 5.56 for some years now, each year evaluating a different bullet. 70gr GMX, 75gr Gold Dot, 70gr TSX, Nosler 64gr Bonded, MK318 SOST MOD 0, and even 12ga slug (LEB127DPRS). Each deer, I field dress and consider the results of the projectile's interaction with the target. I have found that fragmenting rounds like the MK318 do the most damage, followed by good expanding ammunition. The 70gr GMX proved unreliable in that regard. The TSX has performed excellently, and causes significant trauma, easily on par with cup and core bonded ammunition, although the TSX penetrates far deeper, having traveled end to end in a white tail buck (140-160# on the hoof estimate) before, and retaining energy shows in the bruising of the ribs upon exit in other deer.

I also note the reaction of the game when shot. If the projectile passes near the CNS (spine in this case typically), I get a pop-flop. The deer dies in its shadow. If, however, I double-lung the deer, it will run on average 100-125m over open ground, a bit less in wooded or steep terrain. This reaction is similar no-matter what bullet I've used, minus the GMX, which failed to expand well within its velocity envelope.

 

[Unobtanium]

I'm asking in all sincerity. Can you cite references for your information on the "temporary coma" theory? I have some experience in the field of wound ballistics as a layman and end user but received my information from medical doctors who studied thousands of cases of combat wounds and I've never heard of temporary wound cavity causing that type of CNS reaction consistently. If it were true, the guy that shot himself in the face with a 12 gauge, removing his face from the eyes down, should have "shut down for diagnostics", but made it to the trauma room and was conscious for a couple hours until he died from multiple brain bleeds. There are thousands of cases of people being shot in the thorax and still go on to fight while bleeding out. Shouldn't many of those have gone into "temporary coma" from the "electrical shock wave" traveling through their rib cage to their spine and into their brain?

If the temporary stretch cavity intersects the spine, you get that shut down due to spinal trauma. Ive personally seen it numerous times on game, even when the spine was not hit, and have indeed seen game recover, especially when the bullet did not hit vitals (coyote moving when I fired. Dropped like a sack of bricks, later recovered far off after a miraculous recovery in a few minutes when I went to collect him.)

 

[Unobtanium]

Right, a high SG is always desirable. And it's nice that you can get such a high SG with solids compared to some cup and core bullets.

I wish I knew more about just how much that truly affects stability actually within an animal though. Obviously the bullet is spinning and a very high rate before impact, but the resistance it encounters as it contacts flesh will undoubtedly slow or stop the spinning. If it didn't, we'd see petals on bullets like Barnes in a few of the pictures in my original post with angled petals in the direction of rotation instead of simply pealed straight back.

So while increased SG sounds good to maintain stability through the animal, I'm not yet convinced it truly works out that. It's definitely a good theory and there may very well be merit to it. I'd love to see more evidence to study on it, for sure, other than theory alone. I'm not at all saying you're wrong either. It very possible it has a positive effect on the terminal performance.

I have seen gel tests with evidence the bullet still had at least some spin to it as it first entered the gel, but it appears they always stop rather quickly too.

I was looking at the container of recovered Hammers in the picture Fordy posted and I can see one example in there of a bullet that appears to have nosed over and maybe tumbled. I've circled it in red here:

View attachment 309266

My recovered Barnes TSX show swept petals due to rotational velocity. Also note that higher rotational velocity assists in opening up the projectile better, especially in monos as you get into 1-5 to 1-8 twist rates (bullet and velocity depending)

 

[Unobtanium]

Damage to deer caused by MK318 SOST at approximately 2400fps impact (deer at roughly 95m).

Impact R to L:

Damage caused to deer by 70gr TSX, impact roughly 2400fps (deer at 74m):

Impact L to R:

Video of recovering Barnes 70gr TSX from a different deer, which was shot at roughly 100m



Weapon used was an 11.5" 5.56 and 70gr TSX at a MV of 2545fps, and MK318 SOST with a MV of roughly 2630fps.

 

[cabelasken]

I have not read the thread fully, but have shot white tail deer here in the midwest (80-160#) with 5.56 for some years now, each year evaluating a different bullet. 70gr GMX, 75gr Gold Dot, 70gr TSX, Nosler 64gr Bonded, MK318 SOST MOD 0, and even 12ga slug (LEB127DPRS). Each deer, I field dress and consider the results of the projectile's interaction with the target. I have found that fragmenting rounds like the MK318 do the most damage, followed by good expanding ammunition. The 70gr GMX proved unreliable in that regard. The TSX has performed excellently, and causes significant trauma, easily on par with cup and core bonded ammunition, although the TSX penetrates far deeper, having traveled end to end in a white tail buck (140-160# on the hoof estimate) before, and retaining energy shows in the bruising of the ribs upon exit in other deer.

I also note the reaction of the game when shot. If the projectile passes near the CNS (spine in this case typically), I get a pop-flop. The deer dies in its shadow. If, however, I double-lung the deer, it will run on average 100-125m over open ground, a bit less in wooded or steep terrain. This reaction is similar no-matter what bullet I've used, minus the GMX, which failed to expand well within its velocity envelope.

The TSX and TTSX and LRX Barnes in larger calibers does an excellent job on mule deer and elk. My friends and I have taken over 60 animals with them and the results have been similar to your findings. However, at the ranges we've these animals, the impact velocities have been between 2250 FPS to over 2700 FPS. Therefore I am not sure what their performance would be below 2000 FPS.

 

[Unobtanium]

The TSX and TTSX and LRX Barnes in larger calibers does an excellent job on mule deer and elk. My friends and I have taken over 60 animals with them and the results have been similar to your findings. However, at the ranges we've these animals, the impact velocities have been between 2250 FPS to over 2700 FPS. Therefore I am not sure what their performance would be below 2000 FPS.

I have friends that use this ammunition (70gr TSX) out to about 300m from 10.3" guns. It still expands and works fine, but that's about the limit. It's loaded hot and you're getting around 2500 from a 10.3" gun at the muzzle if it's a "fast" barrel. High 2400's if she's a bit slow/higher round count.

 

[cabelasken]

I have friends that use this ammunition (70gr TSX) out to about 300m from 10.3" guns. It still expands and works fine, but that's about the limit. It's loaded hot and you're getting around 2500 from a 10.3" gun at the muzzle if it's a "fast" barrel. High 2400's if she's a bit slow/higher round count.

So your impact velocity with that 70 Gr load would be about 2000 FPS?

 

[Unobtanium]

So your impact velocity with that 70 Gr load would be about 2000 FPS?

Barnes says it works down to 1800fps, but I personally would prefer to keep it at 2K+. My experiments with the bullet show about 10% better expansion in water than in game, and it still deforms down to 1800 in water, but it's reasonably robust at 2000.

 

[cabelasken]

Barnes says it works down to 1800fps, but I personally would prefer to keep it at 2K+. My experiments with the bullet show about 10% better expansion in water than in game, and it still deforms down to 1800 in water, but it's reasonably robust at 2000.

I met with the Barnes guy at the Reno sheep show and he had a list of bullets that he makes that are rated to expand at below 1500 FPS. One was the 139 GR LRX in 7MM. Most of his lineup is the 1800 FPS Variety tho. From personal experience I know 2200 works fine!! All of my guns will hold that minimum to 500 to 600 yds

 

[Unobtanium]

The bullet on the left (70gr tsx) hit a deer in the chest at 100m. It was recovered in his rear thigh, as video a few posts up shows. The bullet on the right, hit 5 one gallon water jugs and then the sheet double draped behind them. 11.5" barrel, MV 2545fps.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

I am looking to give 127 LRX a run this year on deer. Fingers crossed. They are running 3377 Ave in my rifle so will be cool to see how they do. It's factory fodder lots so velocities are down a bit. Bet it will be a hammer on deer or anything I point it at.

 

[cabelasken]

I am looking to give 127 LRX a run this year on deer. Fingers crossed. They are running 3377 Ave in my rifle so will be cool to see how they do. It's factory fodder lots so velocities are down a bit. Bet it will be a hammer on deer or anything I point it at.

I took a nice 4X3 wyoming mulie this past year with that bullet. 6.5 creedmore muzzle velocity was 2850 and distance was 330 yds. golf ball size exit on opposite rib cage. Took 3 or 4 steps is all.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

I took a nice 4X3 wyoming mulie this past year with that bullet. 6.5 creedmore muzzle velocity was 2850 and distance was 330 yds. golf ball size exit on opposite rib cage. Took 3 or 4 steps is all.

Nice sounds like amazing performance.