My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[nealm66]

Definitely here to learn. Loading up some 308 for a friend in Colorado. My first time with 308. Loading for target but he wants to try absolute hammers for hunting next year. Slightly challenging as I don't have the rifle but he will be using a tuner.

 

[fordy]

What I'd really love to see though is a much more controlled testing of this stuff with lots of data and evidence to examine rather than theories based on a few experiences. I wish I had the time and resources myself lol. Sometimes all you have is trial and error. I applaud your efforts thus far.

Gday petey308
Just this paragraph is the key

Thanks for the applaud but it's not about me
I have some incredible help from incredible individuals

I thank you also for your thoughts & input like others also

I'm always on the lookout for improvement & why I push the envelope as it's easier to find the line in the sand then move back to where a failure won't happen or less likely
Well that's how I approached frangible / mono & my journey is far from complete with hammers

How do you suggest a more controlled environment ?
& what numbers do you suggest to have a better understanding of what's happening

Can you also include different placement shots ( numbers for ea eg behind shoulder / hard quarter to /hard quarter away / tailpipe etc
) that's a whole new thread but I don't include cns in the equation & think it's applicable to get a better understanding on any projectile

I'm sure you'll agree once you've seen a lot of autopsy & animal reactions you get a pretty good handle on if it's got potential or not
Pretty quick
Cheers

 

[Petey308]

Definitely here to learn. Loading up some 308 for a friend in Colorado. My first time with 308. Loading for target but he wants to try absolute hammers for hunting next year. Slightly challenging as I don't have the rifle but he will be using a tuner.

The 308 in general is a pretty easy cartridge to work with. One of the reasons I still love it so much. The tumer should help with getting good results a bit faster, especially if you don't have the rifle yourself. I'm honestly not sure if Hammers ate in QuickLoad, but if so, that can really help get a great load made without having the rifle. You just have to have them give you some specs and confirmed velocities with those specs and a known load. Then you just tweak the program and match up to optimal barrel time and you're left with an estimated load that's usually right within a tenth or two of a grain, if not spot on. I've done that a lot for people.

 

[nealm66]

Without having a lot of examples of reloading for 308, his once fired was within 1-3 thousands of the new lapua headspace which I find really good. Thought about loading up some hammers and have him start getting dope for distance but he's pretty new to shooting so the cheap Hornady will be perfect. I don't know much about performance but my experience with Hornady for target has been extremely good. I thought about the easy switch to the eldx from the eldm's and I might still try to sway him that way but I don't think his range will be too far for hunting so may not be a thing

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

I figured out how to hold hair at 500View attachment 309631

I'm dead

 

[Petey308]

Gday petey308
Just this paragraph is the key

Thanks for the applaud but it's not about me
I have some incredible help from incredible individuals

I thank you also for your thoughts & input like others also

I'm always on the lookout for improvement & why I push the envelope as it's easier to find the line in the sand then move back to where a failure won't happen or less likely
Well that's how I approached frangible / mono & my journey is far from complete with hammers

How do you suggest a more controlled environment ?
& what numbers do you suggest to have a better understanding of what's happening

Can you also include different placement shots ( numbers for ea eg behind shoulder / hard quarter to /hard quarter away / tailpipe etc
) that's a whole new thread but I don't include cns in the equation & think it's applicable to get a better understanding on any projectile

I'm sure you'll agree once you've seen a lot of autopsy & animal reactions you get a pretty good handle on if it's got potential or not
Pretty quick
Cheers

I had already mentioned I'm not exactly sure how to conduct that testing. I'm sure figuring that out would be a test in its own. Once you figured out the best way to test and find good data, then you could move forward. I know Nathan Foster uses feral goats as a lot of his live test media, so to speak. It does provide a lot of good insight. Perhaps certain gel tests as well could be beneficial, although not to be used as a conclusion.

In my neck of the woods, coyotes and feral hogs are what's open to hunt year round. That's what I go for when I can. Deer season opens next weekend. Obviously hunting out in the field is not a controlled environment, and that was the point. It's the best I have available to me and many others. I'm speaking hypothetically in that quote. Perhaps one day I or others will find a better and more controlled environment for testing. One where you could test all the different scenarios like you're asking about. It would definitely help to build a better bullet.

And I agree doing autopsies and examining exactly what there is to see in the animal after a kill is eye opening and tells you a lot. It's how I've gained most of my experience and wisdom with all this and a huge part of what I based the write-up on. I've even had to go back and re-examine footage from past kills after learning more about this stuff and learning how to better comprehend what I was seeing. I think it does take some skill and experience to comprehend fully what you see. A lot of my opinions on certain bullets has evolved as a result, as well as how I select a bullet for a particular task/hunt.

 

[Joejack]

It would be nice to hear some experiences with the super bulldozers. I was really wanting to try some in my 22 creedmoor but got steered away. Some accuracy problem they were working on. I'm interested to hear how they perform at different speeds and distance

I tried 2 different batches in my 1&7twist 22creed I couldn't get them to group less then 4" at 100yds

 

[FEENIX]

Ah the first time I've seen anyone mention out of spec copper

How is this as all monos are the same right

Keep delving people & then you will find out exactly why hammers are not your average mono bullet

This is not having a go @ anyone especially you petey308 & I am definitely no expert
Just thorough

Cheers

Unless I misconstrued @Petey308's intent of this thread, it is not about Hammer bullets but rather all copper solids.

I feel like it should have been pretty clear by now that all monos are indeed not the same, however they do have a lot of the same characteristics. I'm thorough too snd try not to make broad claims such as to say they're all the same.

You act as though you're holding back in a lot of your posts, Fordy. It feels like you're testing us by your tone. Feel free to pour out what you have. I think we're all here to learn. I'm not an expert either.

Agreed! I do not think anyone is claiming expert here, so let us all learn collectively.

 

[nealm66]

I tried 2 different batches in my 1&7twist 22creed I couldn't get them to group less then 4" at 100yds

Man, that's too bad. I really wish I had more time. I've got a tested 90vld load but I'm not sure what it will do as far as damage to the hide. Distance will be from 4-800 and speed if I remember is 3150. I built a load with the 88 hammers, I think it was around 3250 that I was really hoping would fall in the same tune (ats) but it definitely doesn't so I'm just going to deliver the 90's and if they destroy to much than I'll retrieve and tune to the hammers and see how they do

 

[Petey308]

Unless I misconstrued @Petey308's intent of this thread, it is not about Hammer bullets but rather all copper solids.

Agreed! I do not think anyone is claiming expert here, so let us all learn collectively.

You are correct.

 

[GLTaylor]

Petey308,
In answer to the earlier inquiry, the only way most of us have to test is in field conditions. Not controlled and not laboratory in nature - but valuable none the less.
Assuming an accurate shooter, who is able to properly place each shot being tested (angle/penetration path, etc), for outcome and autopsy/evaluation.
Owing to depredation permits and a large number of deer, some of us are able to test a great deal.
I've personally killed a lot of deer in recent years and just begun keeping more detailed notes this year. Autopsies are done on each deer with careful scrutiny of wound channel, damage done to organs, bullet travel, penetration, shot angle, etc. and distance. I've got notes on 9 deer so far this year and info on about 40 over the last few. All of my testing is being done with various Hammers at varying velocities. I've quit fooling with lower velocity stuff - just personal preference, based upon results.
I'm in no way affiliated with Hammer. The only other mono I've ever used is Barnes, and I didn't care for them. Prior to 3 years ago all I shot was cup and core.
I'm one of a group of individuals who test and tinker with Hammers. We share what we learn with Steve and Brian at Hammer. What they do with our info is up to them.
We have formed some opinions based upon our tests and experiences. That is where some of the responses to this discussion come from. @Bbean, Fordy and others are part of the group of . dedicated testers. Fordy is a wealth of info and experience. He was/is a control hunter and has extensive experience in Australia and Africa. He has killed literally thousands of animals in an immense size range. He's a very reserved individual and has been "burned" a few times by members on forums with far less experiences and knowledge. Hence his reluctance.
As we discuss things and pursue this learning path, (which is WONDERFUL), just thought I'd put this out there.

 

[Petey308]

Petey308,
In answer to the earlier inquiry, the only way most of us have to test is in field conditions. Not controlled and not laboratory in nature - but valuable none the less.
Assuming an accurate shooter, who is able to properly place each shot being tested (angle/penetration path, etc), for outcome and autopsy/evaluation.
Owing to depredation permits and a large number of deer, some of us are able to test a great deal.
I've personally killed a lot of deer in recent years and just begun keeping more detailed notes this year. Autopsies are done on each deer with careful scrutiny of wound channel, damage done to organs, bullet travel, penetration, shot angle, etc. and distance. I've got notes on 9 deer so far this year and info on about 40 over the last few. All of my testing is being done with various Hammers at varying velocities. I've quit fooling with lower velocity stuff - just personal preference, based upon results.
I'm in no way affiliated with Hammer. The only other mono I've ever used is Barnes, and I didn't care for them. Prior to 3 years ago all I shot was cup and core.
I'm one of a group of individuals who test and tinker with Hammers. We share what we learn with Steve and Brian at Hammer. What they do with our info is up to them.
We have formed some opinions based upon our tests and experiences. That is where some of the responses to this discussion come from. @Bbean, Fordy and others are part of the group of . dedicated testers. Fordy is a wealth of info and experience. He was/is a control hunter and has extensive experience in Australia and Africa. He has killed literally thousands of animals in an immense size range. He's a very reserved individual and has been "burned" a few times by members on forums with far less experiences and knowledge. Hence his reluctance.
As we discuss things and pursue this learning path, (which is WONDERFUL), just thought I'd put this out there.

I know I agreed to have a discussion on Hammers here, but it seems the theme of the thread has turned to Hammers, which definitely wasn't the main intent.

I won't dispute all the success you guys have had, but I still haven't made the conclusion myself they're really that much better overall. I just haven't yet. They are a very well made solid copper bullet, but the technology is simply nothing remarkable or significantly different than many other options on the market. I do not believe they're in a class of they're own. I believe there's a tight group of guys using them within their limits and having a lot of success with them. I think that's great, I truly do.

I'm not trying to push any one brand or type of bullet. They all work within their own particular limitations. I've not disputed that Hammers work. The comments on them here though make me feel as though it's been pushed hard somewhere that they don't work though and now there's a handful of guys really pushing to convince everyone how amazing they are.

I've had my share of "burns" on social media myself and am very reserved on sharing such things as this and my other posts. I started with just a simple post showing bullet dissections and comparisons there, but was asked to share my views on solids as well, so I decided to give it a go. I will say overall, it's been great. I think it has gone over pretty well and has definitely sparked some great discussions. I think the point about Hammers has been hammered home though, pun intended lol.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm off base. But it's how I feel currently. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone or step on toes. I don't have a bias one way or the other. I've made numerous responses and covered a lot of what continues to be brought up.

I'm not saying I'm done with this post and discussion, but I think perhaps it's time to back away from the Hammer drum for a bit lol. I'm certainly open for others' opinions on this. Maybe there's more to say?

Thanks all!

 

[Petey308]

Petey308,
In answer to the earlier inquiry, the only way most of us have to test is in field conditions. Not controlled and not laboratory in nature - but valuable none the less.
Assuming an accurate shooter, who is able to properly place each shot being tested (angle/penetration path, etc), for outcome and autopsy/evaluation.
Owing to depredation permits and a large number of deer, some of us are able to test a great deal.
I've personally killed a lot of deer in recent years and just begun keeping more detailed notes this year. Autopsies are done on each deer with careful scrutiny of wound channel, damage done to organs, bullet travel, penetration, shot angle, etc. and distance. I've got notes on 9 deer so far this year and info on about 40 over the last few. All of my testing is being done with various Hammers at varying velocities. I've quit fooling with lower velocity stuff - just personal preference, based upon results.
I'm in no way affiliated with Hammer. The only other mono I've ever used is Barnes, and I didn't care for them. Prior to 3 years ago all I shot was cup and core.
I'm one of a group of individuals who test and tinker with Hammers. We share what we learn with Steve and Brian at Hammer. What they do with our info is up to them.
We have formed some opinions based upon our tests and experiences. That is where some of the responses to this discussion come from. @Bbean, Fordy and others are part of the group of . dedicated testers. Fordy is a wealth of info and experience. He was/is a control hunter and has extensive experience in Australia and Africa. He has killed literally thousands of animals in an immense size range. He's a very reserved individual and has been "burned" a few times by members on forums with far less experiences and knowledge. Hence his reluctance.
As we discuss things and pursue this learning path, (which is WONDERFUL), just thought I'd put this out there.

And I agree, as I mentioned earlier, you have to use what you have for testing. That's what I've been doing too. I have heaps of notes, pictures, videos, etc I've been collecting and studying from my own kills and others. I test bullets on animals as often as I can. I load a lot for other local hunters and get lots of great feedback and reports from them as well. All this feedback in this discussion and sharing of experiences will get recorded in my notes as well. It's absolutely awesome being able to share experiences like this with each other.

 

[codyadams]

In this first pic, this is at 1700fps impact velocity.
View attachment 309585View attachment 309586

No it's not. That is my bullet, that I pulled out of the neck of an elk I shot at 883 yards with a .338 Norma mag using the 270 SBD at 2830 fps muzzle velocity, impact was at 2113 fps. I also took that picture. Page 6 of this thread.

Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics

Sounds outstanding to me. " CodyAdams", wish I were there to share your sucess.. Because of all the trees on the place I have two ranges. 108 & 424yds with a big deep canyon between me & the 424 yd target. Would love to have a 200 & 300 yd range , which I do have except I can't use it because...

www.longrangehunting.com