My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[Timnterra]

View attachment 309467

I guess we are not speaking the same language. I assumed you were talking about point blank range meaning you could just point and shoot out to 500 yds. I guess if you are shooting at something huge that has a 36" brisket to backbone measurement. Then you could hold on the hair on top of its back and center punch it at 500yds. Otherwise I don't understand what you are saying. If you try to point and shoot a deer at that range you will miss very low.

 

[fordy]

To elaborate on Fordy's brief comment - the deformed Hammer went through the horn of an Asian water buffalo, then penetrated the body and killed the buffalo! Talk about a tough day at the office!

Thanks gl
I'm vague @ the best of times especially this time of year

GL come on 4 k is the new norm I thought so why the snail load with the 120 lol

Petey308
To elaborate on your reply to BB re 124 @ 4220 & your 195 tmk @2700

Really I'm not worried on the actual numbers of what is what as overall both those outfits @ 500 do a nice job on a variety of animals but I need it for the next part of the equation I no very little about

This is from the majority of hunters that I deal with & myself ( so sorry long range people but I'm seeing a few normal range guys on here as well )

This is not to be a smart ar$e or deflect away from long range it's reality to the majority of hunters IMO & be a great talking point yet still has a little merit to long range as if you can retain the extra velocity way out it's got to help also ???

It's also to try & get a understanding of the forces that are taking place

So here's the info I'm asking to be discussed
I herd a quote that every 500 FPS you increased the psi doubled & this I haven't followed up yet ( on my home forum ) so hopefully someone out there can elaborate on that part of the equation as well this is seldom taken into account when comparing performance of a frangible vrs mono as I see to many comparisons with the same weight pill like some one said previously you can drop weight easily with monos hence velocity increases so it's really where the lines cross that matter but the examples above
195 @ 250 yrd is around 1100 FPS slower than the 124 & @ 500 around 700 difference ( please check my sums as I'm in a real hurry & mistakes can happen especially with me )
So how's that translate into that of the dropping a ball or cube into a pond or pool or how ever you put it ( excuse my memory)
Now what's the difference of displacement ?

I mean no offence if this sounds abrasive it's for general discussion

Once again nice tones in this thread
Cheers

 

[ButterBean]

Again, I get what you're saying, but what I meant by efficient isn't what you're referring to. I'm talking about the cartridge and bullet in general, without necessarily talking about hunting. I'm talking about bullets being efficient by retaining their velocity very well and not needing a lot of starting velocity to get a long ways before hitting subsonic. Short action cartridges that are capable of shooting to mile with ease. That's efficient.

A 6.5 SST with a 153.5gr Berger at 3043fps is supersonic still past a mile, for example. That's what I'm meaning. And bringing hunting back into it, with good shot placement, it's still good on game to 1500 yards.

You're view on efficiency is in regards to hold/adjustment. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just clarifying what I meant is all. Your 4200+fps load is obviously going to have a lot of speed to start, but is losing it very fast. It's at a much faster rate than the 153.5gr bullet at like 1200fps slower MV starting out. The 153.5gr at 4200fps MV would still be almost 3500fps at 500 yards with less than a mil hold required. Obviously you're not going get that MV from a 6.5 SST though. It's just an example.

This is going off on a bit of a tangent here though, pun intended lol.

My self imposed range limit is 500 yards so that's how I chose my bullet "Impact Velocity + Bullet performance@ my desired Range " and as you said you can't get that muzzle velocity with the 153 and If I were planning on hunting@ 1500 I would chose another bullet

 

[fordy]

I guess we are not speaking the same language. I assumed you were talking about point blank range meaning you could just point and shoot out to 500 yds. I guess if you are shooting at something huge that has a 36" brisket to backbone measurement. Then you could hold on the hair on top of its back and center punch it at 500yds. Otherwise I don't understand what you are saying. If you try to point and shoot a deer at that range you will miss very low.

Gday
Yeah beans messed up he doesn't need to dial anything if he works to a true pbr

Interpretation is also my down fall so I may be up the wrong tree
but my rum & that pill I do not dial & as long as wind is ok it's game on

Cheers

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

I understand "long range" is subjective and a matter of perspective. That's why I won't tie a number to it. I will say that true long range would be where skills and knowledge are detrimental and when calculating a firing solution to make a good hit is required. That too will depend on the cartridge and bullet used. Obviously some require less adjustment to certain ranges than others.

Kind of agree here. Some people are extremely skilled where 1k is on the easy side, but 3k is major dedication. Many different skill levels out there so still IMHO makes determining long range almost impossible. Still very subjective to be sure, but if thats yours so be it. All good.

 

[ButterBean]

I guess we are not speaking the same language. I assumed you were talking about point blank range meaning you could just point and shoot out to 500 yds. I guess if you are shooting at something huge that has a 36" brisket to backbone measurement. Then you could hold on the hair on top of its back and center punch it at 500yds. Otherwise I don't understand what you are saying. If you try to point and shoot a deer at that range you will miss very low.

1 Mil is 3.7 inches I'm not gonna miss anything very low, once again 3.7 inches low @500 yards from a 100 yard zero

 

[ButterBean]

Right, 1.1mils would still be 20" of bullet drop at 500 yards with that load. I assumed he meant holding just over a mil on the crosshair for a 500 yard shot. You'd still have to get your wind hold right though since a 15mph left to right wind would be 22" at 500 yards. So you'd need to be holding for both or you miss.

1.1 Mils is 3.75 inches

 

[Canhunter35]

1.1 Mils is 3.75 inches

At 100yards
At 500 yards it's 3.75" x 5 so 18.75"

 

[Hand Skills]

....

 

[Pegga]

Here's a couple examples of awesome kills with another lead free option out there. These were taken using a 175gr Terminal Shock bullet out of a 300 win mag, made by Dynamic Research Technologies. These are one of my favorite lead free bullets for hunting. They have a compressed copper powder core and are not actually solid. The powder comes apart after impact and absolutely devastates organs.

This is not me, by the way. This is the president of Dynamic Research Technologies.
View attachment 309093View attachment 309094

Here's a couple examples of awesome kills with another lead free option out there. These were taken using a 175gr Terminal Shock bullet out of a 300 win mag, made by Dynamic Research Technologies. These are one of my favorite lead free bullets for hunting. They have a compressed copper powder core and are not actually solid. The powder comes apart after impact and absolutely devastates organs.

This is not me, by the way. This is the president of Dynamic Research Technologies.
View attachment 309093View attachment 309094

 

[Pegga]

At 100yards
At 500 yards it's 3.75" x 5 so 18.75"

I have killed them with my 5.56
And my 308 Complete pass thru.
Would recommend.

 

[fordy]

Kind of agree here. Some people are extremely skilled where 1k is on the easy side, but 3k is major dedication. Many different skill levels out there so still IMHO makes determining long range almost impossible. Still very subjective to be sure, but if thats yours so be it. All good.

Gday 445supermag
I was searching through the posts & hit quote on yours by mistake
Now I do like your response but I've got no idea on how to get that quote part off

Yes not the sharpest tool in the shed

Oh well
yep der it's all cool carryon people I'm just going to hit reply & post up what I was about to
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Ok going on the twist theme & spinining
Also tumble


Right, a high SG is always desirable. And it's nice that you can get such a high SG with solids compared to some cup and core bullets.

I wish I knew more about just how much that truly affects stability actually within an animal though. Obviously the bullet is spinning and a very high rate before impact, but the resistance it encounters as it contacts flesh will undoubtedly slow or stop the spinning. If it didn't, we'd see petals on bullets like Barnes in a few of the pictures in my original post with angled petals in the direction of rotation instead of simply pealed straight back.

So while increased SG sounds good to maintain stability through the animal, I'm not yet convinced it truly works out that. It's definitely a good theory and there may very well be merit to it. I'd love to see more evidence to study on it, for sure, other than theory alone. I'm not at all saying you're wrong either. It very possible it has a positive effect on the terminal performance.

I have seen gel tests with evidence the bullet still had at least some spin to it as it first entered the gel, but it appears they always stop rather quickly too.

I was looking at the container of recovered Hammers in the picture Fordy posted and I can see one example in there of a bullet that appears to have nosed over and maybe tumbled. I've circled it in red here:

Pic of the one circled in blue is the true tumble as the one that went through the horn in red Apart from a true solid most pills will fail to stay straight if even get to the vitals & I've even seen true solids fail miserably

Back to the one in blue

This pill was extremely accurate & no signs of instability on paper
SF right on the 1.5
Moved to little critters 1 to 5lbs chest width upto 3 inches to se if a pencil would occur
No pencil but on animal preformance while looked impressive the actual time impact to tipping was dismal actually really dismal
Now move to the one that was recovered in blue circle & that was the result with tumbling occurring very quickly in its travel & could be tracked easily
This was replicated again on tumble in next animal so that combo was packed up & moved to the next batch for testing

What we've found by increasing sf to @ least 2 ( more is desirable we believe) the problem is going away

Now you say the petals should be twisted on Barnes if this was the case
Like this you mean
I've seen it heaps & the best one was from a ginger springbok yes a Barnes stopped in a springbok believe it or not & it wasn't a tailpipe shot ( I'll see if I can find it )
SF on this one out of a Rusa deer was just over 3 & my springbok was nearly 5
Yes I accept different resistance but IMO on the shear numbers I've seen this on , it's a pattern that's happening

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

At 100yards
At 500 yards it's 3.75" x 5 so 18.75"

I was gonna say 3.75 in definitely isn't right