Long Action vs Short Action.

[nralifer]

LVR works fantastic in my Grendel's.

Do you find it fairly temp stable?

 

[Turpentine21]

When one truly considers all the variables that play into a rifle shot, one starts to wonder how rifles can be made to shoot as accurately as they do. One well established concept is that of barrel harmonics playing into group size. The object is to tune the load such that the barrel vibrates consistently from shot to shot thus releasing the bullet while it is in the same position in its vibration cycle. In load development we all have experienced the phenomenon that there are certain speeds where groups are the tightest. Speeds above that tight group speed start to open up. In some instances continued increases in speed may lead to a second accuracy node at a higher speed as long as there is not an overpressure situation. When that happens every body is happy. That higher speed accuracy node may vary from powder to powder, and thus it is important to be open to trying different powders. The reason I mentioned LVR is that it is generally not listed as a powder useful in the 308 Win, but it is my experience that it can work well. That doesn't mean it will work as well for everyone though. CFE 223 is listed for the 308, but it did not work for me. Since LVR had a slightly lower burn rate, I decided to try it and it worked fine.

I have so many different kinds of powder right now that it's ridiculous. My AR10 proves your point. I think the 8th different powder I tried in it was the winner. By a huge margin. That powder was AR comp. It took a solid MOA performer to the high .4s and is very forgiving.
In my Grendel, Lever's high velocity accuracy node wasn't safe. But I'm very happy with results I get from 8208 and AR Comp. It is extremely accurate and predictable with those. High .3s. I haven't tried Lever for my other Grendel or my friends. For speed I have not seen anything that would touch Lever. My friend could benefit from that speed for his uses. His barrel is a bit slow but very accurate. I haven't tried CFE but really don't want to because I'm hesitant to add another type of powder to the 15-20 I already have. I'm also content with what I have. I will admit though that I personally prefer stick powders.
There is one place that I prefer ball powder for my needs. 5.56 I'm not chasing speed or pure accuracy there though the loads are plenty accurate And fast enough. I found a good mid level load with H335 and 50 grain bullets. I throw charges for this one.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Do you find it fairly temp stable?

Yes. It work's fantastic. I have a bolt gun and a AR I run it in. I've used the 123 Hornady SST with 31.4 of LV with great results. I've killed Javelina and Coues deer with the load. I plan on trying a BD and the 85 Gr Hammer but just have not got around to it yet. I also have a 100 Gr AMAX I want to test with. I live in Tucson Az so large temp swings are the norm but it's not given me any issues at all.

 

[nralifer]

I have so many different kinds of powder right now that it's ridiculous. My AR10 proves your point. I think the 8th different powder I tried in it was the winner. By a huge margin. That powder was AR comp. It took a solid MOA performer to the high .4s and is very forgiving.
In my Grendel, Lever's high velocity accuracy node wasn't safe. But I'm very happy with results I get from 8208 and AR Comp. It is extremely accurate and predictable with those. High .3s. I haven't tried Lever for my other Grendel or my friends. For speed I have not seen anything that would touch Lever. My friend could benefit from that speed for his uses. His barrel is a bit slow but very accurate. I haven't tried CFE but really don't want to because I'm hesitant to add another type of powder to the 15-20 I already have. I'm also content with what I have. I will admit though that I personally prefer stick powders.
There is one place that I prefer ball powder for my needs. 5.56 I'm not chasing speed or pure accuracy there though the loads are plenty accurate And fast enough. I found a good mid level load with H335 and 50 grain bullets. I throw charges for this one.

I understand what you are saying. Temp stable stick powders are more plentiful, but ball powders seem well suited to short cases as they pack well. Leverevolution is not advertised as being temp stable but I have used it in weather as hot as 90 degrees with apparent overpressure sigs, so it seems like it has some temp stability. The relatively new ball powder, StaBall6.5, is advertised as temp stable and its burn rate is useful in a large # of cases, mostly ones that are over bore.

 

[Turpentine21]

Ball is ideal for the Grendel with its case capacity restraints. I'm not writing Lever off. But just like any other powder I use, I develop or at least test loads in the exact conditions I plan on using them. I generally have more luck with stick. I still want to try Lever in my friends 18"Grendle with 123s and in My 1st Grendel with 1 in 8 twist with the 129 LRAB bullets it seems to prefer. My 20" 1 in 8 is finicky with 123s and that gets worse if the velocity is pushed. Bill Alexander alluded to this in his comments after testing 20" barrels and twist rates. After my experience with mine I'm inclined to agree. But I also think my bolt and barrel on that gun have affected it. Headspace values, while in spec. measured from my comparator, measure 5 to 8 thousands different measuring fired brass from it vs 5 other Grendel's. It's a brass stretcher for sure and works much better with cases that have been fired in it previously and just shoulder bumped slightly. I have to keep cases separate. The chamber is either slightly longer or my bolt face depth may be different or I'm a victim of tolerance stack. They are all type 2 components. I plan to get that figured out but it's way down the list as I don't use it much. My 1 in 9 20" AA likes stick powder with the 123 hornady's. It has been a very easy gun to load for. It's barrel came with an included headspaced bolt.
I use h335 some in 223 where I throw charges and it does well enough. It seems to have a bit more muzzle blast than some other powders I use but it works. MR 2000 is another I may try in 223. I have it. I might as well use it. I really don't need the 223 ammo to be extremely accurate. I do have some really accurate loads for it but for most, minute of armadillo is fine. My son is a "blaster" with his 2 ARs and Korean K2 in 556. He can run through ammo quick.
If I get around to loading for his AK I'll likely use ball in it. Again using thrown charges. At the price I get Tula ammo for, reloading for that gun is less attractive.
Some of this is off topic but I figured some may find it interesting anyway.

 

[nralifer]

Yes. It work's fantastic. I have a bolt gun and a AR I run it in. I've used the 123 Hornady SST with 31.4 of LV with great results. I've killed Javelina and Coues deer with the load. I plan on trying a BD and the 85 Gr Hammer but just have not got around to it yet. I also have a 100 Gr AMAX I want to test with. I live in Tucson Az so large temp swings are the norm but it's not given me any issues at all.

That is great news. I certainly have not hunted in Tucson like heat before, bu have hunted in 90F temps with LVR. The load I use in the 308 Win I am sure is close to max, but like you I did not notice any pressure signs.

 

[MW204]

If you have a long action with a magnum bolt face you could just do a barrel change to use the WSM in the long action that would work with your magazine.

I had a 458 WM in the safe for the past 15 years or so not doing anything so I pulled that barrel and bought a new barrel and put it on that Rem 700 LA and made a 300 WM. Now I can run the long bullets and quite well too.
178 gr AH, 3350fps, <3/8" group at 100 yds, and a one-shot kill at 300+ yds on a 3 x 3 mule deer this year that was shot then flop and doesn't move no more.

 

[nralifer]

I had a 458 WM in the safe for the past 15 years or so not doing anything so I pulled that barrel and bought a new barrel and put it on that Rem 700 LA and made a 300 WM. Now I can run the long bullets and quite well too.
178 gr AH, 3350fps, <3/8" group at 100 yds, and a one-shot kill at 300+ yds on a 3 x 3 mule deer this year that was shot then flop and doesn't move no more.

Take a look on UTube at 150 gr Bulldozer vs Blue Wildebeest. Shot with a 20" barreled 308 Win at 482 yds. All shots on that trip regardless of range had the same result.

 

[MW204]

Take a look on UTube at 150 gr Bulldozer vs Blue Wildebeest. Shot with a 20" barreled 308 Win at 482 yds. All shots on that trip regardless of range had the same result.

Nice...

 

[nralifer]

My 300win mag is short action and I jam the lands. Only advantage I see would be in a hunting rifle one could use a magazine. It's all depends on the rifles purpose I suppose. But on another note could you not just use a reamer with 0 Freebore and achieve the same?

Wouldn't this mean the bullet would be seated even deeper in the case and jammed in the lands getting to an overpressure situation sooner?

 

[nralifer]

I just switched the bolt head on my Origin LA, unscrewed the proof prefit winmag barrel and dropped the action off for a 308win project. I'm going to find out if the controlled round feed of the Origin long action will feed 308's from a long action 10round 30-06 HS precision magazine. I didn't have anything else I was willing to use as a switch barrel rig so here this one goes. Many times it seems like the 308 barely fits the short action magazines anyway.

My prediction is that the mods you are doing will work just fine and help you optimize the 308's performance way beyond what the military uses in it's M40 sniper rifle. With the extra action length you can increase the free bore length of the chamber and seat bullets out a bit further especially the long ogive ones like the 205 gr SBD2 and at the same time increase the powder space. I would be very interested on what kind of results you get. PM me so we might discuss this further.

 

[nralifer]

I did some extensive testing with bullet seating depth many years back and pretty sure the report was posted here on LRH. The test was with my 338 Allen Xpress which is my version of an improved 338 lapua. Now this is not a short action but the reason for the testing was because some were saying they could seat the 300 gr berger to well over 4" in their 338 edge rifles and easily match the 338 Allen Xpress……. i knew this was not correct, especially when considering brass life. The results however really did surprise me.

tested this bullet with a seating depth of 3.650" for use in detachable magazines such as the HS Precision, 3.820" for use in the extended mag lengths and then at 4.100" for single shot use which should have produced a HUGE advantage in velocity.

to start the test, i started with Retumbo which at the time was one of the better powders for the 338 Allen Xpress with the 300 gr berger. the test barrel was a 26" finish length, simply tested cutting throat lengths to different lengths.

going off memory, the short length produced around 2850 fps. mid length was a bit over 2900 and the long length was in the 2975 fps range so there was a 125 fps increase in velocity. This was as expected and it proved that a long seated 338 AX in a relatively short barrel was easily matching a long seated 338 Edge but doing it with 4" shorter barrel length….

anyway, after this test and reviewing the results, the short seated rounds ran out of capacity relatively quickly. So just for curiosity i decided to try some ramshot magnum which is a ball powder in similar burn rate to retumbo. Just to see, i through a same weight powder charge as the one used for retumbo and found that there was plenty of excess space in the case with same weight powder charge. This was simply due to magnum being a ball powder with much higher load density then the stick powder retumbo.

gave magnum powder a full work up and to my amazement, this powder topped out at the exact same 2975 fps as the very long loaded 4.100" version with retumbo…… i could actually use slightly more Magnum in the short 3.650" oal then retumbo used on the long seated version…..

so whats the point. Well, with the selection of powders we have today, there is very likely a combo that will work with a higher load density powder that will produce basically the same velocity as a different powder in a long seated application.

now if your using one specific powder, yes there will be a preferred oal to get the most velocity for a given situation but in a short seated application, there will be a best powder and there will be a totally different BEST powder for a long seated application. In the end, they often are extremely similar in end resulting performance.

as far as safety, we have heard often its dangerous to deep seat bullets….. not sure where this came from. I have never seen any danger at all in doing this. In all honesty, even a deeply seated bullet will have passed through the throat and into the bore before peak chamber pressure is reached. Never seen any issues over many thousands of rounds testing my super magnum wildcats or any other conventional chamberings.

if you want to use a standard receiver for a short action round, if it feeds, no problem at all. There are extended mags for most of the most common SA receivers which offer good oal that work well.

simply put, dont get to hung up on thinking you need to seat the bullets out as far as possible to get top performance numbers. That is not actually the case. Unfortunately today, getting any powder we want is a bit tricky for sure though.

The picture below illustrates what I think is a problem for the 6.8 Western. According to Winchester the bullet is seated very deeply in their loaded ammo. After pulling a bullet from their ammo, they use 64.4 gr of a ball powder to compensate. I think it is Superformance or something like it. Their ammo grouped poorly for me. The loaded rounds will fit and feed through a short action Defiance which I was using. With that much powder space impingement one would be limited in using stick powders to try. A longer action would allow seating of the bullet such that the end of the boat tail reaches the shoulder/body junction and still feed through the magazine.
Another aspect that complements the longer action approach is the throat design. We had PT&G make us a stepped throat design for the standard 338 Lapua which allowed us to propel our 265 gr ICBM2 bullet to 3200 fps. It gas a G1 BC of 0.9 and from a standard throat pressures out at 3000 fps from a 30" barrel. Dave Kiff also promotes a bore rider chamber which has a longer tight tolerance free bore which has the same effect on speed. What we believe is happening is that the longer throat allows for the use of more powder while at the same time reducing how quickly the pressure spike occurs when the bullet fully engages the full thickness rifling. That way one can add more powder to achieve the same peak pressure as the shorter throated chamber but because of the greater powder charge maintain a higher average pressure throughout the bullet's acceleration through the length of the barrel, thus the higher velocity.

 

[BrienM]

My prediction is that the mods you are doing will work just fine.

So far I have 65 rounds on the new 308 barrel on long action origin. Most rounds I have fed through the hs precision 30/06 mag. It feeds fine so far as long as I don't "baby" it. I only have 11.25 twist and 26" total length so long freebore won't benefit me much.
Main purpose of this action is 300winmag for hunting. Secondary purpose , I needed a 308 to shoot in a local match so i repurposed this action in off season. No regrets so far. It's feeding well and shooting well. I'm planning on load development after 100rds. So far I'm shooting ammo I had for a different barrel a couple years ago.

 

[WillELee]

I thought I would chime in and say that I bought a Defiance XM action, which I understand is a medium length action, and found an M5 bottom metal that fits it at Bugholes....and here I am months later and cant find a stock that will accommodate those components. I am new on this forum, so surely didnt want to highjack the thread by any means, but thought it might be an opportunity to get your guys' thoughts or comments on where a stock could be found. Thank you gentlemen, and if I am out of line please say so and I will back out.
Thank you