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Long Action vs Short Action.

I build 100% of mine on long actions. Mine are all repeaters. No issues..
I won't build on on a short.
Not saying it can't be done with a WSM it's just that numerous folks experience feeding issues with doing it depending on the action type. Simply screwing on a new barrel is usually not the norm in MOST cases. A simple google search and you can find numerous threads about issues some/many have encountered.
 
What problems have you had with double base powders?
Yes I did over 20 years ago. It was IMR 4350. Set and had an excellance load doing 3400fps in the winter time in Mexico-North (aka Calif) which wasn't that cold either. In the 50+drg. I went onto other rifles and loads. In late June I changed back to my rifle that I had develop the load for. Temp was about 100deg. I had a hell of a time getting the bolt open. Blew the primer out of the case. Change to H4350 and never looked back. Lost 100 fps, but that was ok, and the groups was about 1/8" overall wider. Move from 3/8" to about 1/2" groups.
Bottom line I gave away 16lbs of powder and never used it again. Was I pushing the limits on the loads "YES"
Most double base powders have temp problems.
Look at what SD & ES devilation in changes in velocity. Under 500 not so such a big deal, but at longer rangest it can be a hit or a miss. That also depends on what you are shooting at too.
 
Yes I did over 20 years ago. It was IMR 4350. Set and had an excellance load doing 3400fps in the winter time in Mexico-North (aka Calif) which wasn't that cold either. In the 50+drg. I went onto other rifles and loads. In late June I changed back to my rifle that I had develop the load for. Temp was about 100deg. I had a hell of a time getting the bolt open. Blew the primer out of the case. Change to H4350 and never looked back. Lost 100 fps, but that was ok, and the groups was about 1/8" overall wider. Move from 3/8" to about 1/2" groups.
Bottom line I gave away 16lbs of powder and never used it again. Was I pushing the limits on the loads "YES"
Most double base powders have temp problems.
Look at what SD & ES devilation in changes in velocity. Under 500 not so such a big deal, but at longer rangest it can be a hit or a miss. That also depends on what you are shooting at too.
That is why I have gone to using temp stable powders for hunting applications. StaBall 6.5 is a double base powder that is temp stable which I have verified in the 243Win. Loads made at 59F had less than 10 fps increase in speed at 93F even when left out in the sun (rifle and ammo). ELR shooters can make charts that document how many fps increase there is per degree of temp. The risk there is that the speed of the round moves out of the accuracy node of the rifle. Very temp unstable powders to me make little sense in general.
 
Not saying it can't be done with a WSM it's just that numerous folks experience feeding issues with doing it depending on the action type. Simply screwing on a new barrel is usually not the norm in MOST cases. A simple google search and you can find numerous threads about issues some/many have encountered.
I ran 300 wsm on a Remington 700 long action never had any issues I was feeding through an AICS mag. And will shortly be running a 270 WSM through an origin long action coming from a BDL floor plate
 
I don't have any of these type cases. I do see a possible problem with the double base powder being more heat sensitive than single base powders. I would take care in areas where the temper change 100+ degrees from below -0 to +100 degrees. I am not trying to beat anybody up, just saying be careful.
I have to be very careful of temp sensitivity in general. I do work up my loads in cooler weather but with the knowledge of the fact that a lot of my work with those loads will be in June or July. Years ago I worked up a great 308 load with ball powder at 50 degrees. I wasn't as aware of the effects as much then. I had read about them but just wasn't as concerned. I decided to test it on one of those 95 degree days. That pretty much drove the point home. I didn't have a catastrophe, but there were definitly signs of excess pressure. Bolt lift was the first clue. Brass inspection proved it.
I use Varget, H4895, imr4064 and AR comp in my 308 loads now and they hold up well to excess temps. I've tried some ball powder in 6.5 Grendle but Ar comp and 8208 are a bit more predictable. 8208 can get away from you quick if you run it close to the edge. I have IMR 4350 and H4831sc in 6.5-06 and 270. I try to use the H if I'm worried about hot weather. Even then it's a good idea to not run right on the line.
 
That is why I have gone to using temp stable powders for hunting applications. StaBall 6.5 is a double base powder that is temp stable which I have verified in the 243Win. Loads made at 59F had less than 10 fps increase in speed at 93F even when left out in the sun (rifle and ammo). ELR shooters can make charts that document how many fps increase there is per degree of temp. The risk there is that the speed of the round moves out of the accuracy node of the rifle. Very temp unstable powders to me make little sense in general.
Yes depending in what areas you are hunting and the range of temp change. I hunt in -20F to + 110F. So it's really up to the hunter, and knowing his rifle or whatever they are using. I created a problem of myself over 20 years ago with using a type of powder. I've never have forgotten it either. I try to worn people about the problem. That way at lease I feel I have done my job to try and keep people safe.
I do push my reloads, and probable others are doing the same. I hate it when I read where somebody has a rifle, pistol, or shotgun come apart.
I have done some additional reading on StaBall powder. It seem to stable or close to that. Looked it up to see if it would work in what I reload for. So I don't really have anything it will work in.
I do have a 6mm, but it's infront of a 280AI case necked down. You can say I push things. I have quite gotten to fire it much yet. Still working on getting items for the reloading and cooling the barrel. To make things worst I losted my area to reload at the same time.
So I have a couple of thing to overcome yet, and then off to the range.
 
Yes depending in what areas you are hunting and the range of temp change. I hunt in -20F to + 110F. So it's really up to the hunter, and knowing his rifle or whatever they are using. I created a problem of myself over 20 years ago with using a type of powder. I've never have forgotten it either. I try to worn people about the problem. That way at lease I feel I have done my job to try and keep people safe.
I do push my reloads, and probable others are doing the same. I hate it when I read where somebody has a rifle, pistol, or shotgun come apart.
I have done some additional reading on StaBall powder. It seem to stable or close to that. Looked it up to see if it would work in what I reload for. So I don't really have anything it will work in.
I do have a 6mm, but it's infront of a 280AI case necked down. You can say I push things. I have quite gotten to fire it much yet. Still working on getting items for the reloading and cooling the barrel. To make things worst I losted my area to reload at the same time.
So I have a couple of thing to overcome yet, and then off to the range.
Understood. I lost the majority of my reloading components and equipment In a major flood years ago. It took me a while to build back up and get going again.
When you hunt or live in places where you have large temp swings, it certainly pays to be informed and make good decisions. And to check your load in your extremes and adjust as needed.
I have on more than one occasion seen factory loads stick in the chamber and lock down a bolt. I work on rifles and have had folks bring me rifles with the bolt seized and they shoot nothing but factory loads. Our deer season opens in August so folks check their zeros in hot temps before the season opens. This is generally when I see this.

No powder is immune to temperature. It is simply less sensitive. It can be pretty stable for one caliber and far different in another. As a general rule I stay away from ball powders and work with stick powders that are well known to be less sensitive to temp but my reasons go beyond the issue of sensitivity. In my rifles stick powders are a touch more accurate and consistent from one month to the next. However, I am working through some Grendel loads with Leverevolution for a friend of mine. Velocity is impressive but groups are not there at the higher velocities in my rifle. Maybe it will work for him. But we have a lot of work to do yet. I have another Grendel that shoots one hole groups with Power Pro Varmint in 50 degree temps. It is not a hot load at all. But I've yet to see what it will do in hot weather. I feel like it will be safe. But I'm not sure it will stay in the accuracy node. Time will tell. I'm enjoying these discussions, thank you for replying.
 
That the way I see it. I have major temp swings so I am stick to H powders. I generally use H4350 or H4831SC. I haven't noted any notable change in taking animals. I hold my shoots to 500 yds and under.
At a 1000yds, Velocity variation of just 30fps changes about 8.5". A 50fps variation can change it by 14" at a 1000yds. Some powders have as much as 125fps swing and that from 0 dr to 120dr.. Take it another 20 dr lower.
Bottom line is that you need to know what your rifle does at different temp. The chart I use for H4350 is 4fps variance in the same temp range.
Now I didn't get the same velocity out of the H4350 over IMR 4350 by 100fps.
 
No the H4350 is definitely slower than the imr 4350 velocity wise. The imr 4350 as you said is a good hunting powder particularly if shot distance is reasonable. I put it along the same lines as imr 4895 for temp stability. It's not very resistant but it's consistent.. I am hoping H4831sc is going to be stable for me. I don't have the experience with it first hand in 65-06.

I have shot quite a bit of medium burn rate powder. Varget in 308 is very good. AR Comp has given me the lowest statistics I have ever shot In my AR 10. Incredible. But I haven't fully tested it at real cold temps. Waterlines are very good at 600. . IMR 4064 is what I use for my bolt gun when Varget is absent and it will match my accuracy with Varget with a shade more velocity. It handles temps well. just not quite as well. Both will shoot amazing waterline's at 1000 from my rifle
 
Understood. I lost the majority of my reloading components and equipment In a major flood years ago. It took me a while to build back up and get going again.
When you hunt or live in places where you have large temp swings, it certainly pays to be informed and make good decisions. And to check your load in your extremes and adjust as needed.
I have on more than one occasion seen factory loads stick in the chamber and lock down a bolt. I work on rifles and have had folks bring me rifles with the bolt seized and they shoot nothing but factory loads. Our deer season opens in August so folks check their zeros in hot temps before the season opens. This is generally when I see this.

No powder is immune to temperature. It is simply less sensitive. It can be pretty stable for one caliber and far different in another. As a general rule I stay away from ball powders and work with stick powders that are well known to be less sensitive to temp but my reasons go beyond the issue of sensitivity. In my rifles stick powders are a touch more accurate and consistent from one month to the next. However, I am working through some Grendel loads with Leverevolution for a friend of mine. Velocity is impressive but groups are not there at the higher velocities in my rifle. Maybe it will work for him. But we have a lot of work to do yet. I have another Grendel that shoots one hole groups with Power Pro Varmint in 50 degree temps. It is not a hot load at all. But I've yet to see what it will do in hot weather. I feel like it will be safe. But I'm not sure it will stay in the accuracy node. Time will tell. I'm enjoying these discussions, thank you for replying.
I sure like LVR for my 20" 308 Win. Have hunted in 25-90F weather with no signs of overpressure. I get 2920 fps with our 150 gr .308 SBD2 bullet and it groups reliably between 0.5-0.7 MoA. My Douglas barrel is the most accurate grouping 0.4-0.5MOA. The Proof carbon is OK but not as consistent as the Douglas.
 
No the H4350 is definitely slower than the imr 4350 velocity wise. The imr 4350 as you said is a good hunting powder particularly if shot distance is reasonable. I put it along the same lines as imr 4895 for temp stability. It's not very resistant but it's consistent.. I am hoping H4831sc is going to be stable for me. I don't have the experience with it first hand in 65-06.

I have shot quite a bit of medium burn rate powder. Varget in 308 is very good. AR Comp has given me the lowest statistics I have ever shot In my AR 10. Incredible. But I haven't fully tested it at real cold temps. Waterlines are very good at 600. . IMR 4064 is what I use for my bolt gun when Varget is absent and it will match my accuracy with Varget with a shade more velocity. It handles temps well. just not quite as well. Both will shoot amazing waterline's at 1000 from my rifle
Here a file on temp powders. I wish it was larger or all were rated, but it's what it is.
 

Attachments

  • Powder Temp Stability IMR Vs. Hodgdon Extreme.pdf
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I sure like LVR for my 20" 308 Win. Have hunted in 25-90F weather with no signs of overpressure. I get 2920 fps with our 150 gr .308 SBD2 bullet and it groups reliably between 0.5-0.7 MoA. My Douglas barrel is the most accurate grouping 0.4-0.5MOA. The Proof carbon is OK but not as consistent as the Douglas.
I have just shot a little of it in a new AA build. We did fine until I passed the velocity I had reached with 8208, then groups opened up. I can't see it giving me anything there that I can't get with 8208. Speed yes but the accuracy isn't there. Z Maybe I'll see something with the heavies.
I am going to try lever in a friends Grendel's with 18" barrels to see if the speed will do him some good.
With power pro 2000 I could get 3000 + with 150s and 2975 or so with 165s in 308 and groups were pretty good. But i would get flyers in just about every group. It got a little wild past 95 degrees.
 
I have just shot a little of it in a new AA build. We did fine until I passed the velocity I had reached with 8208, then groups opened up. I can't see it giving me anything there that I can't get with 8208. Speed yes but the accuracy isn't there. Z Maybe I'll see something with the heavies.
I am going to try lever in a friends Grendel's with 18" barrels to see if the speed will do him some good.
With power pro 2000 I could get 3000 + with 150s and 2975 or so with 165s in 308 and groups were pretty good. But i would get flyers in just about every group. It got a little wild past 95 degrees.
When one truly considers all the variables that play into a rifle shot, one starts to wonder how rifles can be made to shoot as accurately as they do. One well established concept is that of barrel harmonics playing into group size. The object is to tune the load such that the barrel vibrates consistently from shot to shot thus releasing the bullet while it is in the same position in its vibration cycle. In load development we all have experienced the phenomenon that there are certain speeds where groups are the tightest. Speeds above that tight group speed start to open up. In some instances continued increases in speed may lead to a second accuracy node at a higher speed as long as there is not an overpressure situation. When that happens every body is happy. That higher speed accuracy node may vary from powder to powder, and thus it is important to be open to trying different powders. The reason I mentioned LVR is that it is generally not listed as a powder useful in the 308 Win, but it is my experience that it can work well. That doesn't mean it will work as well for everyone though. CFE 223 is listed for the 308, but it did not work for me. Since LVR had a slightly lower burn rate, I decided to try it and it worked fine.
 
I have just shot a little of it in a new AA build. We did fine until I passed the velocity I had reached with 8208, then groups opened up. I can't see it giving me anything there that I can't get with 8208. Speed yes but the accuracy isn't there. Z Maybe I'll see something with the heavies.
I am going to try lever in a friends Grendel's with 18" barrels to see if the speed will do him some good.
With power pro 2000 I could get 3000 + with 150s and 2975 or so with 165s in 308 and groups were pretty good. But i would get flyers in just about every group. It got a little wild past 95 degrees.

LVR works fantastic in my Grendel's.
 
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