Let’s talk reloading

[Huntnful]

20 and 33 are a lot different. And i dont use there standard in my 10lb lapua.

Yeah me neither lol. But they have the platforms to show the differences with larger samples. And their stuff shoots plenty good for larger sample for the data to be legit.

If an F class rifle is having a hard time to distinguish meaningful progress in accuracy for a change made, once it's elaborately tested, that's legit info IMO.

 

[Huntnful]

I like this test. He shows that there are potential depth nodes. And they're actually pretty wide. I fully believe seating depth can increase a gun's accuracy. I don't believe I can shoot the difference with my guns. And I've proven it to myself several times lol. And it's not like I'm shooting scatter groups either haha.

 

[Huntnful]

Here's a 5 shot .1 from a 6.5 PRC.

This is the first charge weight, seating depth, and first time even testing the bullet in this rifle. Maybe I just nailed the .003 seating window and the ultra fine tuned powder charge on the first shot lol.

Obviously I'm just being sarcastic. But it's hard to deny the countless pretty decent, if not excellent groups that have been produced with over 10 rifles and zero load development with several bullets and calibers and cartridges.

 

[Huntnful]

Also I like to argue with @Barehandlineman11 about it, and the only reason my guns even shoot good is because he's the one building them hahaha. And then I get to tell him "see, load development doesn't really matter" .

 

[civy93]

My brother espoused that notion and I've come to accept it too. Especially powder charges. If 40.5gr works but 40.0 and 41.0gr doesn't work, then the moment you have temp variation you're out of whack again. If a range of charges works, then you've got something to work with. I am no benchrest shooter, just amateur at best, but it seems to me that if a bullet/powder combo is picky then it isn't worth messing with.

General rule of thumb (for us) is to pick your bullet and powder you wanna run, pick a load in the top 50-75% of the book, set your bullet seating depth as book COAL, and see what happens. If it works try some variations around it to make sure it's not picky. If it doesn't work, move on to a different combo.

We over complicate the hell out of it, and there's aspects that really make a big difference (brass prep for example seems to be huge) but for general 1moa accuracy, it's not too hard.

This is exactly what I've found.

 

[ChrisInKY]

I disagree that all beginners are dummies. I read reloading and competition forums like this one for several years before I bought my first press and actually started. I had a solid knowledge base on day one and was interested only in tiny groups. I did not start on level 1.

My dad got me started. I think I was about 8. He had a buddy who was serious. I went from the level B or C my dad taught to level X in about a year. I was hand loading for everyone we knew who owned a firearm by the time I was a teen. Got to level Y about 40 years later.

We get smart studying. We get good by doing. Never do anything you're good at for free.

There's an order of operations. Mine is 30 steps and takes about 4 days. I've never seen anyone give away their 'comprehensive' secrets list. You get to pick up tips here and there. A few more of those and I might make it to level Z.

 

[Justice1327]

Because they don't all grow the same amount. One may not grow at all and another one may grow .004". You then have a difference in neck tension. SDs in low single digits requires concistency

So the reason why you're saying that you trim after every firing is because they don't all grow at the same rate ? again, why would you trim if it's not longer than the trim length?
My point is when someone says they trim every single time after every single firing what are they trimming to? If you have an Ackley cartridge you could literally trim the neck off if you trimmed after every firing.

 

[ChrisInKY]

I like this test. He shows that there are potential depth nodes. And they're actually pretty wide. I fully believe seating depth can increase a gun's accuracy. I don't believe I can shoot the difference with my guns. And I've proven it to myself several times lol. And it's not like I'm shooting scatter groups either haha.

You're a damned fine shooter.

Final seating depth is my last step. It's done at the range. It can make ALL the difference in a good day of groups where fliers can ruin it.

 

[Huntnful]

So the reason why you're saying that you trim after every firing is because they don't all grow at the same rate ? again, why would you trim if it's not longer than the trim length?
My point is when someone says they trim every single time after every single firing what are they trimming to? If you have an Ackley cartridge you could literally trim the neck off if you trimmed after every firing.

I'll try to speak for him to try and clear things up maybe. If you initially trim pieces to 2.000". After you fire them all, you get a variance in case length now from from 2.000-2.003.

So you "trim" every time, but not to a shorter OAL length. You just re-uniform the whole lot back to 2.000" after each firing.

I don't personally do it anymore, but I used to. So I believe that's what he's saying.

 

[Mickp7]

I'll try to speak for him to try and clear things up maybe. If you initially trim pieces to 2.000". After you fire them all, you get a variance in case length now from from 2.000-2.003.

So you "trim" every time, but not to a shorter OAL length. You just re-uniform the whole lot back to 2.000" after each firing.

I don't personally do it anymore, but I used to. So I believe that's what he's saying.

This example is what I just tested in one of my hunting rifles. I typically trim everything back to trim length each time since it I/O chamfers at the same time. The casings were from .000-.003, so I used a prep station to load 5 and see how they flew.
This is at 420 yards, the squares are 1".

 

[Huntnful]

Just shot this right now. 300 NMI with 215 Berger's. First seating depth and charge weight.

100 yards. Mounted new scope. Bore sighted. Shot these 5 shots. Adjusted zero afterwards.

Went straight to 957 yards with the next 5 shots to true drop data. Holding 2 MOA of wind.

I've done this with all of my rifles with different bullets and powders enough times to know it works. Now in 10 rounds, I have a gun and load with the precision capable of killing anything well beyond 1000 yards. So instead of doing development to shrink my group .1 (which is extremely hard to even prove that you succeeded in doing), and will also have a 0% effect on whether or not I kill an animal. Now I can just get to shooting and making sure my drops are perfect and repeatable beyond 1200 yards. No cold bore shifts (which there never is). Practicing in wind and testing some better positional shooting, all of which can actually have an impact on whether or not I kill an animal.

Also shooting groups at 100 yards and doing development at 100 yards is probably the biggest waste of time I've ever personally done. Aside from getting a legit zero, group testing at longer ranges has saved me a ton of time. Normally just go straight to 600 yards for testing, if conditions are good. Or 300 yards if they're poor.

All these 100 yard groups are normally just shot while fire forming brass, getting zeroes or firing out virgin brass to get on to the once fired as fast as possible.

 

[Mickp7]

Just shot this right now. 300 NMI with 215 Berger's. First seating depth and charge weight.

100 yards. Mounted new scope. Bore sighted. Shot these 5 shots. Adjusted zero afterwards.
View attachment 585658

Went straight to 957 yards with the next 5 shots to true drop data. Holding 2 MOA of wind.
View attachment 585660


I've done this with all of my rifles with different bullets and powders enough times to know it works. Now in 10 rounds, I have a gun and load with the precision capable of killing anything well beyond 1000 yards. So instead of doing development to shrink my group .1 (which is extremely hard to even prove that you succeeded in doing), and will also have a 0% effect on whether or not I kill an animal. Now I can just get to shooting and making sure my drops are perfect and repeatable beyond 1200 yards. No cold bore shifts (which there never is). Practicing in wind and testing some better positional shooting, all of which can actually have an impact on whether or not I kill an animal.

Virgin brass? If so, what prep?

 

[FireFlyFishing]

I like this test. He shows that there are potential depth nodes. And they're actually pretty wide. I fully believe seating depth can increase a gun's accuracy. I don't believe I can shoot the difference with my guns. And I've proven it to myself several times lol. And it's not like I'm shooting scatter groups either haha.

@Huntnful you have convinced me, having custom rifles makes reloading way easier. You don't have to be a reloading genius to produce great groups and have an accurate rife. Or, maybe a better way to put it, you don't have to "tinker" or "tune" near to the level of a 20-30 year old factory rifle.

That being said, some of the new factory rifles produce some nice groups with very little work up. I've had very good luck with the Tikka CTR in .308 WIN. I'm very interested in the Seekins rifles as I've only heard good things out of those for a factory rifle. Perhaps a Seekins 6 CM is in my future…

Lastly, the groups I'm seeing you post are from cartridges that seem to be "inherently accurate." The newer cartridges are designed to shoot factory ammo well, so…reloading is a snap.

Regarding Hornady's podcast/vlog on the OP's post, their simpleton way of looking at reloading and having good results is totally achievable for the reasons I've mentioned above. I'm guessing the ballistians at Hornady are not shooting $500 Mossburg Patriots. Certainly not on their comp rifles.

 

[Huntnful]

Virgin brass? If so, what prep?

This is once fired now. So the first firing after I formed the brass.

De-prime
AMP anneal
Henderson Trim
Imperial Sizing Lube
FL size
Wipe off case
Brush neck with nylon brush on drill
Moly inside of neck
Mandrel with .3075 mandrel
Prime