Let’s talk reloading

I see huge differences in seating depths in all my guns but 90% like a .009 jam too .010 jump. Every once in while ill see a 20-30 jump and super rare 50+ but at 600 its obvious. 3-4" groups down too 1-3" groups. I treat seating as course adjustment. Then Powder fine. Neck tension and primer depth to lower es sd as low as i can. Typically i got good load and im just tweaking at that point.
 
It sounds like you build an incredible good rifle which doesn't hurt anything. Glad to see you chime in though. There really is some potentially great benefits from tuning a load and you don't have to burn the barrel out or spend a fortune getting it done. Once it's properly accomplished its very rewarding
 
One half MOA accuracy can kill any rodent on this planet provided condition are within the capabilities of shooter, ammo, and rifle. A 1 inch wide T post combined with a range finder & good spotter observations is a good gauge of shooting performance for hit evaluations, like 4 inches at 1100. Minute variations can interfere with anticipated results. Agonized load preps will interfere with ammo production.
 
Have you done testing and seen massive improvements with modern bullets like a berger hybrid and ELDM. I haven't found them to be very seating depth sensitive. I'm not sure what lead balls you were shooting and tuning 86 years ago out your flintlock musket hahaha. Totally kidding, just making an old guy joke 😅
Massive improvement with modern bullets like Berger hybrids? Those are pretty narrow qualifiers, probably the first time any of those things have been mentioned at all in this thread.

Massive improvements. I'm not sure anybody here claimed massive improvements. Small, yes.

Modern bullets/Berger hybrids. Some bullet designs are less sensitive to seating depth than others. Berger hybrids for example are designed to be insensitive to seating depth. But hybrids are one of the exceptions, it's what gives them an advantage and what makes them different. Most other bullets will show preferences in seating depth.

I agree with you on this: well built/custom rifles shoot well with basic known loads and without any real load development. Can the load be customized/tuned and improved? Absolutely. Can the shooter outshoot the gun/ammo? Depends on the shooter, but I deeply despise being held back by the limitations of my equipment, I need to know if the error on target is my performance vs my equipment.

Pics? I'm so old, I used to have a Photobucket account. Here's one of my custom barrels. It shot so well, that even after I burnt out the barrel, it still shot decent "groups" on paper. :)
 

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@Huntnful is like most guys they want a true half moa gun with little effort. If everything is done right half moa is typically easy to achieve with little effort but they can be tuned to shoot better. Now the reloader or shooter might not but the physical gun can.
Very well said.

I don't have the equipment (I shoot on 15X) or the desire to try and best a .5 MOA 5-10 shot group. And I've tried many times with no provable success probably just because of my limiting equipment, relatively light rifles and inconsistent shooting conditions.
 
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Maybe what's holding you back is that 0.1" thing you're not doing on your handloads, or that other 0.1" thing you're also not doing. Or both of those things combined for 0.2" that's holding you back? How would you know? It doesn't take hundreds of rounds to test. None of us can perform 100% all of the time, but don't you ever fire a shot that felt right but it didn't impact where it was supposed to and you think hmmmmm... You'll never know if it was you vs the ammo you leave a little load development on the table untested.
 
Maybe what's holding you back is that 0.1" thing you're not doing on your handloads, or that other 0.1" thing you're also not doing. Or both of those things combined for 0.2" that's holding you back? How would you know? It doesn't take hundreds of rounds to test. None of us can perform 100% all of the time, but don't you ever fire a shot that felt right but it didn't impact where it was supposed to and you think hmmmmm... You'll never know if it was you vs the ammo you leave a little load development on the table untested.
I definitely understand what you're saying.

But to legitimately prove a decrease in group size it can literally take hundreds of rounds, depending on the repeatability of the system. I understand the thought if having two 5 shot groups side by side ones a .5 and ones a .4, and then picking the smaller one that had a .003 seating difference and considering it a change. Then taking that and doing a charge weight test and you have one 5 shot group land at .4 and one at .3. So you pick the .3 and now you've "made" a .2 change in the accuracy of the load.

But I just shared two large sample size groups, much more statistically relevant than a 5 shot group (and most people don't even shoot 5 shot groups) and there is a 40% variance with the exact same load. And a rifle that shoots 12 rounds into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards is certainly an accurate rifle to base data off of.

So of course if you're going to go through all the hoops of testing, you're going to pick the smaller group from each test. But unless you're going to establish a legitimate baseline accuracy for the initial load (which is hardly ever done with any significant amount of shots) all the tweaking and tuning from the testing afterwards have virtual nothing for a comparison. You just think you're progress based of off virtually nothing but an initial 3 shot group normally.

And I'm not saying YOU personally. But that is the case a lot of times.

In the video I shared. The F class shooter literally did an entire meticulous seating depth test, as he would normally do. He then picked the absolutely worst depth he initially found and the best depth he found. He shot them for an actual large sample size (33 rounds a piece) and the initial worst small sample group outperformed the best small sample group.

So it really can take a significant amount of shots to prove without a doubt that you've done something to increase your accuracy.

It's not like we're taking 2 MOA guns and taking them to 1/2 MOA. Thats an apparent and obvious change. But taking a .5 MOA gun to a .4 MOA gun is extremely hard to prove and repeat.
 
This is from a 9.5lb 28 Nosler that @Barehandlineman11 built for my buddy, that I did the loading for. I was just firing the Virgin brass out and seeing if it like one bullet more than another.

Shot at 164 yards.

195 Berger on the left with 81gr. N570 and 180 ELDM on the right with 83gr. N570.

First seating depth and charge weight for each bullet. 12 shots a piece. Both in the .6's for 12 shots at 164 yards. Absolutely zero testing prior to shooting these groups. First range trip.

IMG_2329.jpeg
 
33 rounds at a target doesnt do it for me. Thermals in barrel shooting that much and environment around you is changing. Unless its in a room controlled temp and shooting each shot with barrel at same temp then you dont really know.
Multiple 5 shot groups today tomorrow the next is what i call a shooting gun, no cold bore shift. If i was shooting competition maybe care more for 30 shot groups
 
33 rounds at a target doesnt do it for me. Thermals in barrel shooting that much and environment around you is changing. Unless its in a room controlled temp and shooting each shot with barrel at same temp then you dont really know.
Multiple 5 shot groups today tomorrow the next is what i call a shooting gun, no cold bore shift. If i was shooting competition maybe care more for 30 shot groups
F class is a minimum of 20 shots on target, plus sighters. So I figured if we're using them as the accuracy standard, those group sizes would be a good standard as well lol. They do it all the time
 

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