Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

[Brent]

Alrighty guys, to your corners a moment!

Phil,
Barrel heat -
If I shoot 3 shot groups, keeping the heat down as I would in the field, but shoot 7 targets for 21 shots, all over the top of another target collecting all 21 shots on it. What have I learned?

What I mean to say is, barrel heat was not an issue, and if they all went under .5 MOA, will it not hold .5 MOA under the circumstances it will be used in?

If I was headed to the range with you, and we were going to fire 3 groups at 1000 yards 10 shots each, fast as we could cycle the bolt, I wouldn't be convinced I'd know what to expect out of my rig though. BUT, I never get into that situation when I shoot, hunting or targets.

Until now, I never believed it mattered to see how it shot hot. I mean, if some problem laying dormant in my rifle that pops up out of the blue bites me because I hadn't got it hot to draw out this problem, I want to know what it would be.

I can't think of anything a hot barrel would show me, other than how it shoots when it's hot? I may be ignorant, and many things I've never heard or thought of on my own yet, but I can weigh the facts as I see 'em and learn every bit I need to.

Here's what I see after you got me thinking on this -

Barrel heat does something to make a gun shoot better after it has been gotten real hot. I think you said something to me about that once before if I recall. Why it would, I'm not sure.

It may be true, I've not tested it, and would be difficult if not impossible to isolate it as the only variable to test, whould it not?

Barrel stresses -
It may be that stresses could show up in your groups, but they are temp induced I thought? Warping causing POI shift as it heats up I mean.

Educate me some more.

 

[Brent]

Shooting "more" than 3 shots in the field is not out of the realm of possiblity, just **** close.

Saw a burning up meteor the other night, lit the whole **** sky up above me, thought it was coming in right on top of me!! I guess firing four shots or more at a moose would be like the chances of that thing actually falling and hitting me.

Been there before though, I just plan for it so I don't go back.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

4mesh,

Well, well I woundered when your Royalness would enter in this... First of all I love the fact you think I am lying or making myself better than I am.. or building in excuses.. I never claimed to be a world class elitest Williamsport Holier than though shooting guru... In fact if you read A LOT of my posts you'll see I am asking for evaluation and advise on my groups as I would like to compete in Tactical matches
and will take any information I can get!
Even you are invited to come out here this August and we'll see what up.. I may shoot horribly during that time but .. I'll be here with my ego and *** on the line infront of all that choose to be here so ... I don't have anything to hide..

First of all you're WRONG! FOG at 6000 ft?? Common now.. really ... Those micro bursts that came through were not only clouds but also snow showers. I was just really happy I shot that well in those conditions... But hey if you don't believe me check the weather for Wapiti, Wyoming that day!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> "Boyd, How do you know that it would get bigger?" Well, what the hell do YOU think? If it's 4" now and you shoot more rounds, do you think it's gonna get to 3" ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess it would have been impossible to put the other shots inside of that 4".. hell no that couldn't happen could it... Easily, or possibly more shots could have been shot into that group even vertically or horizontally that would have kept that group at 4"...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I think the trouble is less that anyone slights what is accomplished, just that they are difficult to impress. There are MANY people here who have done some remarkable things in all the shots they have fired over the years and when they don't fall over themselves congratulating you on what you feel is a monumental achievement, you take it personally and whine about people having no respect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah thats exactly what I wanted was people falling all over me, patting me on the back.. thats what I live for... My life just wouldn't be complete without the guys here telling me how good I was.. really.. I need that in my life.. cause my life outside of this board really sucks!!... What I posted was about people like you with the God Almighty BS about how that if you don't shoot 10, 20 or a gazillion rounds into a small group or do it under the 1K BR rules of Williamsport your rifle just doesn't shoot well.. and the a basis for this thread was to establish a criteria for what determines an accurate rifle... I don't have anything to prove to you or anyone else... This board is not a proving ground for me, the only proving ground for me is myself and every now and again I will post a group and usually get feed back of where there could be improvement ie: someone will ask about a condition or weather... in another thread Brent asked about weather conditons and in a respect that I hadn't considered.. thats the stuff I look for....


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Someday, if you ever learn to listen, you will understand that if you have a gun that has a change of impact after 10 rounds, that you also have a gun that will change from day to day by the same amount or more. Until that day, we will never know if you have a great gun or not because you positivly refuse to shoot enough rounds to find out!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe if you ever come down off your pedestal and pay attention to what happens outside of your perfect little world you'll see that until I have a 1K BR rifle built, I don't need to shoot 10, 20 rounds in a row.. after all how many time have you hunted with a hot barrel?? And I am very unlikely to fire shot number 11 at my intended target as usually, I would imagine aftger the first few that animal would be in the next county!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Now, you can shoot 3 shot groups on different days till hell freezes over and then blame the wind and barometer for all the change. But, you could save a lot of time and wasted bullets by shooting till the gun is hot and see if it has a problem. I am here to tell you that if it changes POI after 20 rounds, then IT WILL CHANGE DAY TO DAY even if you notice it or not. If you have a gun that repeats, then if will repeat, hot or cold. That is the simple fact that is being missed here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean to tell me all your perfectly built rifles shoot to the same spot on any given day reguardless of the weather? You must have a very special rifles and bullets...

You may have information to share... but you have your head buried in the sand as well.. I doubt very hightly that your 20 round test is the "test of all tests" How do you know that 30 or 40 rounds isn't better yet? Your test may very well be good for you but does it apply to everyone across the board? NO, not everyone shoots competition and very rarely does everyone shoot 5, 6 10, 20 shots at game animals.. the point while hunting is to shoot 1 time and hit your target... If I have a target that has a group of 20 shots in it.. It will be 20 shots taken on 20 days to see what my rifle has done.... not 20 shots one after another....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>At least when someone says something that makes sence (not very often) I listen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could have pained a better picture of you...

If you know anything at all, know that Chris of all people has never, nor will act in anyway that makes you think he knows everything.. he just isn't that way... on the other hand the way you act.. well... I don't need to say anything there...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I have yet to hear a way to test that works better than the repeated shooting. I mean, repeating is exactly what we are trying to test, isn't it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have recently read some very valuable information ...

take your perfect rifle and shoot 30 rounds through it.... BUT shoot one round per day for 30 days ( at the same POA )or.. shoot 1 round ( at the same POA) after and only after your barrel is COLD.

I have concluded what Brent has.. In all your posts you seem to say that your barrel has to be hot to shoot well or that your barrel shoots better when hot? Not sure Ihave use for a rifle that shoot well hot. In all my experience and I'm not saying I have a lot, heating a barrel usually leads to POI changes? Not necessarily in all respects but in a generalization of sorts..

Hmmm.. now what other board can I go to and post my "faked" groups so I get an "atta boy" so my day starts off GOOD! I need that validation or my life is miserable...

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> What I posted was about people like you with the God Almighty BS about how that if you don't shoot 10, 20 or a gazillion rounds into a small group or do it under the 1K BR rules of Williamsport your rifle just doesn't shoot well.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ric,The only person that keeps bringing that up is you.The fact still remains.That a "GREAT" shooting gun will shoot great no matter what the conditions are or what the amount of rounds were that are put down the barrel.That is why that some of us that have a Great shooting gun.Or know what a great shooting gun is capable of.Are not impressed with the groups you posted shot with a good shooting gun.

[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>I can't think of anything a hot barrel would show me, other than how it shoots when it's hot? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Brent,thats the way I see it also.But that is one of the things that separate a good gun from a great gun.........I had a custom 7stw that after 4 rounds would change POI.To me that gun was junk.And has since been disposed of.I also have a factory 243 that will put 50 rounds into an inch as fast as I can put them in and pull the trigger.That is a great gun

 

[STL_Shooter]

Boyd,

I have come up with better things to say. Many times.

But what this thread is - and what many threads are around here - is a chest thumping match that always ends in "...ah aint believin anythin you says abouts yah stick untils you comes ta mah club an beats me wit it...".

So, like I said a few posts ago, I'm fresh out of words and can only muster base attempts at humor to lighten the tone...

 

[AJ300MAG]

Ric, the shooting world seems to be stuck on statistical analysis, you need X number of shots to be a significant gruop. I say bull pucky, think the animal I just killed, with one and my first shot realy cares how significant my statistics are, other than he's added to my success rate!

Haven't you learned my friend within 7 pages that we all must bow before the almighty benchrest shooter (may be except Boyd)for they are the best in the world. I'd agree with S1. Looks like a good test for hunter/tactical shooters.

 

[jb1000br]

Boyd--just curious of your testing--have you shot a 20rd group back to back (not simulating the sighter period) with your wsm? If so, how did it tun out?

I am afraid to kill good barrel life--if mine does 17-20 rounds in a good group(simulating sighter period) than im happy because i will never shoot more than 10 sighters--thats all i have for one relay.

I would never subject anything other than a BR gun tothis though.

OTOH I do have a bunch of 308's 168's loaded that i dont shoot anymore (since going to 175's) maybe i should shoot all 50 rounds thru my 308 to stress relieve the barrel--Phil is that enough rounds?

maybe that would give me an excuse to rebarrel sooner.

JB

 

[jb1000br]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Haven't you learned my friend within 7 pages that we all must bow before the almighty benchrest shooter (may be except Boyd) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey now, be nice

What about me

 

[AJ300MAG]

Once heard a federal judge make a ststement durring a trial, "figures lie and liars figure". Statistics have their place, but wonder if we put too much emphasis on them. Each dicipline has it's own set of values, and obviously people are going to justify their position on a given subject. (what the heck did I just say)

I think a true test of a hunting rifle would be two shots fired in rapid sequence, without using the first shot for a correction, done in the manner described by S1.

One could argue, that in benchrest, your required 5 or 10 shot groups. Wouldn't a true test of a rifles performance be a 30 shot group? After all, do sprinters only run 100 meters in practice, or was my HS coach lying to me

 

[MAX]

Questions mebbe, a couple of observations:

STL, how'n hell you guys come up with that name for the LLP?

This thread's gonna die someday, brace yourselves!

I'm reminded of the book Stroker Ace, the basis for which is a "discussion" between a stock car racer and a grand prix/formula driver about which was more...challenged. What I'm seeing here is comparisons that have little validity to my eye, yet I wouldn't argue the points made by any of you within the context of your discipline.

Wyo, I understand where you're coming from, and from a practical standpoint I think it's fine shooting. If we should ever meet, remember, there ain't no 6'2" prairie dogs ANYWHERE in Wyoming.

Just mindless ramblings from a restless mind.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

This thread did take off on a mind of its own I guess.. not what or where I intended...

Stats.. the world basically turns by them and all I wanted was a set of values or criteria that we could establish what is or isn't a good gun for its perspective dicipline.. I have pretty much given up on that at least form this board...

Boyd,
You are right, I did bring it up a few times nothing personal against you.. we have always gotten along and I am sure we will in the future .. may even shoot together some day.. but I am not the only one who feels that way.. just one of the few on here who had balls to say how they feel.. STL's sentice a few posts earlier is how a lot of us non-br shooters feel at times...
You guys do what you do and some of you are good at it, some are great, some are in the hall of fame... but we all can't adhere to the standards set forth by BR shooters and most of the guys here feel as though those are the standards you need to follow for a good or great rifle... My groups may be nothing special to you guys but until I see you guys take your hunting rifle lay down call your dope and fire 3 shots and hit all three with in 15" of you POA... then your tiny groups at 1K don't mean a thing to me... I am sure without question I could shoot a tiny groups with a 1K br rifle and correctly prepped ammo and hang with you guys... I have at least that amount of confidence in my ability.. but until I do it.. you guys will laugh and say " yeah right, whatever"

What has really floored me was thay some here think I faked the distance or weather conditions that day .. for what reason on this earth would I have any reason to do that?? Especially if I invited a group of guys here to shoot for 3 days.. don't you think my ability would be exposed then? And maybe it will, because I actually intend to listen and learn for those 3 days! Call me selfish but I know I ain't the best and I want to learn more! For ME!

You guys may or may not like S1 but for a hunting rifle/tactical set up he has the best criteria for evaluating if you have a good, or great rifle... until someone elightens me more I'll use that method. However, as always I am very open minded.. opinionated for sure but very open minded...

to the rest who conritbuted.. thanks I have given all your posts some thought and I will try a few ideas...

[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]

[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]

 

[AJ300MAG]

Yup Ric, it's getting time to let this ride off into the sunset. They'll keep doing what their doing and be happy, we'll continue down our path. Tell me though, what taste better, Heinz or A-1 steak sauce when you fry up them 1000 yard targets

[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: AJ300MAG ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Max,

My last job was as the Assistant Phlegmatic Codependent Target Poster for the St. Louis Benchrest Club. Oh, at first, it was a heady time indeed - the supersonic crack of projectiles as they passed overhead from dawn until dusk, the informative discussions on neck turning and flash hole reaming with the pros at the range...

But after awhile, jeez... The long hard hours jogging back and forth out to the 600 yard pits, posting targets for S1 and his friends, running 12-step programs for disenchanted benchrest shooters... It got to me - you know?

I left that position for an opportunity with this up and coming firm. I mean, more $$$, a dental plan and a window office with a view of the 300-yard berm... What more could a guy ask for?