Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
Sorry 4mesh.Its only 8 pages
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OK, to all,
STL,
I did like the subtle humor. Walked right into that one, nice goin. It was taken as it was intended you notice, and I even got a laugh out of it myself. No, I don't do anything with mice either! (testing or otherwise!)
Ric,
The very title, "Is it the Truth, BS, BR, or Ego". Now seriously, was the thread not intended to dig up exactly what you got? Please.
Before going any further, I don't understand how you guys read text and then turn it into something that was never said. Where did I say that a hot barrel shoots better or for that matter even imply that for one second. What I said was that a GUN that will shoot well WHEN THE BARREL IS HOT, IS A BETTER GUN. And I'm gonna continue on this shortly. Now, at no time did I say that a hot gun shoots better just that a hot barrel will exaggerate the errors you see and if a glaring error is just waiting to surface, you will then find it and you don't have to wait a month or year to see the result.
Now, I'm gonna try to answer a few questions from post one as well as I can and with as much reference as I can and perhaps, you'll then agree at least with the direction of my answers, if not the subject matter. Heres a quote from you from post one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
when guys post groups..
2 shots
3 shots
5 shots
10 shots
which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?
Why don't 3 or 5 shot groups get respect?
Why do 10 shots = a better group? Does it prove that that 10 shot rifle is better? Or does it prove the shooter is better? Really ??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, First My opinion. 3 shot groups and only 1 5 shot group mean nothing from any gun. OK, we know that's my opinion. Now, heres why.
OK, now, For those of you who have "Rifle Accuracy Facts" By Harold Vaughn, Please go now and read the chapter on barrel joints. Then come back.
For those who don't, I'll paraphrase what Harold says. If you don't know who Harold is, He was probably a real smart guy, I don't know that as a fact because I never met him and have no point of reference, but I'll take the rest of the worlds word on it. He does seem to have some very good ideas and most of his information is accompanied by data that suggests you can test the results for yourself to see if what he said is BS, BR or EGO.
Harold goes into great detail about the stress imposed on an action and more specifically a receiver and barrel during firing. Basically, what he concludes is that the barrel joint on a gun, (one hell of a lot smaller than your WSM Ric), is subjected to either a maximum containable stress, or a yielding one to it's structural integrity. There is not even one hint of saftey margin built in to the joint for heat and thus, the action lives at the ragged edge of stability. In other words, it's just begging to change the point of impact. The single easiest way to see if the gun is unstable, is to fire it till it heats up and see when, (not if) it changes POI. Heat will change the preload on the barrel.
Now, Im not on any BR high horse, I'm telling you that EVRY SINGLE bolt action, screwed in barrel gun IN THE WORLD has this problem. To what degree, is one of the things what seperates a good one from a bad one. This of course amongst a million other issues that may arise from any number of other physical problems, or shooter errors.
You have the technology to test this and at no significant cost to yourself.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ric, if you can shoot 3 shots into whatever off a bipod, then you of all people must agree that there is very little handicap given up by the prone shooter to the BR shooter. How much smaller do you think a BR shooter can shoot at the ranges you posted? Look at it like this, in matches where classes are divided by any sight, open sight, there is usually an almost immeasurable difference in shooter performance scoped to iron. Yet, people try to impress you with some crap about "I shot this with open sights!" Well, it means nothing to me, sorry. I've shot off a bipod and no offence, I'm just not that impressed with what you did. It's good, don't get me wrong, but to me it's no different than bench shooting. The Single only problem I see that should open your groups is that it takes you significantly longer to chamber the next round, and get back on target, AND that TIME is wasted while conditions change so your goose gets cooked. That's all as far as I'm concerned.
Now, you asked people to explain why bigger strings of shots in groups mean more, then spend 6 pages argueing with anyone who said more shots means more, or complaining about anyone who even implied you should shoot more because there is entirely too much chance in a few shots. Well, get over it. OK agree to disagree. WHO CARES? I gave you a ton of information that you are welcome to discard as useless, or welcome to test to see if it applies to you and your gun. You guys act as if this gun is some sort of national shrine. We don't want to shoot that thing now, do we? Do you buy a new truck just so you can look at it i nthe garage. I've seen photos from YOU showing a pickup with a bail of hay and a guest wild animal in the bed. You don't honestly think I'm gonna believe that you haul hay in that truck? My God! It might get a scratch in the bed, Then what will you do?
Its a tool. Use it.
You're not gonna tell me that the next barrel for that gun will cost $3500 are you? Lets get Chris back here and ask how much a barrel, chamber and fit will cost for your gun. My guess, around $500 +- a little. Done deal. Well, are you gonna save the thing forever or are you gonna shoot it to have fun, learn, and move forward in something that you obviously enjoy. Lets face it, you already spent the money. You own the gun forever (as long as you like). What's the big deal? Do you think that's a remarkable barrel? It's not. Barrels are Barrels. Hummers and Bummers are made at the gunsmith shop. If you got one, you'll get another. That's how it works. I don't care what brand, what material, etc. Barrel makers make good barrels and you'll be hard pressed to tell the minute differences from one to the next in our lifetime.
Next: If you don't want an answer to a question, don't get on a public forum and ask. And sure as hell don't ask for opinions. ( I believe one of your threads specifically asked for exactly that, then you ****ed and moaned about the responses). While it's nice to get a warm fuzzy answer to everything, there are a lot of things concerning the topics related to shooting which have no "one and only" answer. Some do. Many of them have a best answer, but there is allways more than one way to a means. Some take longer than others.
If you re-read my posts objectively, I think you will find that my answers attempt to force you to run past the BS, and go get your own FACTUAL answer. Now, I admit that my posts are difficult to read objectively from your standpoint because, while you maintain that you never pointed anything at Boyd, when you certainly did, I have no problem with telling you that I absolutely pointed my response at you. I welcome your response to my response. My lifestyle hasn't changed one iota either.
Fog: Yes, I am aware that it's a cloud. I got exactly the response I expected and wanted. I got my point accross. That's all that matters to me.
Which is better?: The very fact that you would ask such a thing amazes me. Just think of it like this. Your group was a one hole-er till you shot # 2. What happened?
Last thing, I'm tired of typing and Have to get back to work.
Lets say that your gun exhibits a change of impact after firing several rounds. (Just for the sake of arguement). Now, what shot does that change take place on? 4? 5? 10? 20? Where? Lets say for the sake of arguement that it's on shot # 4. Now, you shoot 3 today. You go hunting at great range tomorow and guess what, your barrel is NOT pointing where you think it is and no matter how good a "Doper" you are, shot 1 is NOT where you expect. Wouldn't you be happier knowing when that takes place? I would.
I'm not even going to waste my time proof-reading this...
Had to edit it. I hate mis-spellings and bad grammar! Though I think I'm the only one here who does!
[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: 4mesh063 ]
STL,
I did like the subtle humor. Walked right into that one, nice goin. It was taken as it was intended you notice, and I even got a laugh out of it myself. No, I don't do anything with mice either! (testing or otherwise!)
Ric,
The very title, "Is it the Truth, BS, BR, or Ego". Now seriously, was the thread not intended to dig up exactly what you got? Please.
Before going any further, I don't understand how you guys read text and then turn it into something that was never said. Where did I say that a hot barrel shoots better or for that matter even imply that for one second. What I said was that a GUN that will shoot well WHEN THE BARREL IS HOT, IS A BETTER GUN. And I'm gonna continue on this shortly. Now, at no time did I say that a hot gun shoots better just that a hot barrel will exaggerate the errors you see and if a glaring error is just waiting to surface, you will then find it and you don't have to wait a month or year to see the result.
Now, I'm gonna try to answer a few questions from post one as well as I can and with as much reference as I can and perhaps, you'll then agree at least with the direction of my answers, if not the subject matter. Heres a quote from you from post one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
when guys post groups..
2 shots
3 shots
5 shots
10 shots
which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?
Why don't 3 or 5 shot groups get respect?
Why do 10 shots = a better group? Does it prove that that 10 shot rifle is better? Or does it prove the shooter is better? Really ??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, First My opinion. 3 shot groups and only 1 5 shot group mean nothing from any gun. OK, we know that's my opinion. Now, heres why.
OK, now, For those of you who have "Rifle Accuracy Facts" By Harold Vaughn, Please go now and read the chapter on barrel joints. Then come back.
For those who don't, I'll paraphrase what Harold says. If you don't know who Harold is, He was probably a real smart guy, I don't know that as a fact because I never met him and have no point of reference, but I'll take the rest of the worlds word on it. He does seem to have some very good ideas and most of his information is accompanied by data that suggests you can test the results for yourself to see if what he said is BS, BR or EGO.
Harold goes into great detail about the stress imposed on an action and more specifically a receiver and barrel during firing. Basically, what he concludes is that the barrel joint on a gun, (one hell of a lot smaller than your WSM Ric), is subjected to either a maximum containable stress, or a yielding one to it's structural integrity. There is not even one hint of saftey margin built in to the joint for heat and thus, the action lives at the ragged edge of stability. In other words, it's just begging to change the point of impact. The single easiest way to see if the gun is unstable, is to fire it till it heats up and see when, (not if) it changes POI. Heat will change the preload on the barrel.
Now, Im not on any BR high horse, I'm telling you that EVRY SINGLE bolt action, screwed in barrel gun IN THE WORLD has this problem. To what degree, is one of the things what seperates a good one from a bad one. This of course amongst a million other issues that may arise from any number of other physical problems, or shooter errors.
You have the technology to test this and at no significant cost to yourself.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ric, if you can shoot 3 shots into whatever off a bipod, then you of all people must agree that there is very little handicap given up by the prone shooter to the BR shooter. How much smaller do you think a BR shooter can shoot at the ranges you posted? Look at it like this, in matches where classes are divided by any sight, open sight, there is usually an almost immeasurable difference in shooter performance scoped to iron. Yet, people try to impress you with some crap about "I shot this with open sights!" Well, it means nothing to me, sorry. I've shot off a bipod and no offence, I'm just not that impressed with what you did. It's good, don't get me wrong, but to me it's no different than bench shooting. The Single only problem I see that should open your groups is that it takes you significantly longer to chamber the next round, and get back on target, AND that TIME is wasted while conditions change so your goose gets cooked. That's all as far as I'm concerned.
Now, you asked people to explain why bigger strings of shots in groups mean more, then spend 6 pages argueing with anyone who said more shots means more, or complaining about anyone who even implied you should shoot more because there is entirely too much chance in a few shots. Well, get over it. OK agree to disagree. WHO CARES? I gave you a ton of information that you are welcome to discard as useless, or welcome to test to see if it applies to you and your gun. You guys act as if this gun is some sort of national shrine. We don't want to shoot that thing now, do we? Do you buy a new truck just so you can look at it i nthe garage. I've seen photos from YOU showing a pickup with a bail of hay and a guest wild animal in the bed. You don't honestly think I'm gonna believe that you haul hay in that truck? My God! It might get a scratch in the bed, Then what will you do?
Its a tool. Use it.
You're not gonna tell me that the next barrel for that gun will cost $3500 are you? Lets get Chris back here and ask how much a barrel, chamber and fit will cost for your gun. My guess, around $500 +- a little. Done deal. Well, are you gonna save the thing forever or are you gonna shoot it to have fun, learn, and move forward in something that you obviously enjoy. Lets face it, you already spent the money. You own the gun forever (as long as you like). What's the big deal? Do you think that's a remarkable barrel? It's not. Barrels are Barrels. Hummers and Bummers are made at the gunsmith shop. If you got one, you'll get another. That's how it works. I don't care what brand, what material, etc. Barrel makers make good barrels and you'll be hard pressed to tell the minute differences from one to the next in our lifetime.
Next: If you don't want an answer to a question, don't get on a public forum and ask. And sure as hell don't ask for opinions. ( I believe one of your threads specifically asked for exactly that, then you ****ed and moaned about the responses). While it's nice to get a warm fuzzy answer to everything, there are a lot of things concerning the topics related to shooting which have no "one and only" answer. Some do. Many of them have a best answer, but there is allways more than one way to a means. Some take longer than others.
If you re-read my posts objectively, I think you will find that my answers attempt to force you to run past the BS, and go get your own FACTUAL answer. Now, I admit that my posts are difficult to read objectively from your standpoint because, while you maintain that you never pointed anything at Boyd, when you certainly did, I have no problem with telling you that I absolutely pointed my response at you. I welcome your response to my response. My lifestyle hasn't changed one iota either.
Fog: Yes, I am aware that it's a cloud. I got exactly the response I expected and wanted. I got my point accross. That's all that matters to me.
Which is better?: The very fact that you would ask such a thing amazes me. Just think of it like this. Your group was a one hole-er till you shot # 2. What happened?
Last thing, I'm tired of typing and Have to get back to work.
Lets say that your gun exhibits a change of impact after firing several rounds. (Just for the sake of arguement). Now, what shot does that change take place on? 4? 5? 10? 20? Where? Lets say for the sake of arguement that it's on shot # 4. Now, you shoot 3 today. You go hunting at great range tomorow and guess what, your barrel is NOT pointing where you think it is and no matter how good a "Doper" you are, shot 1 is NOT where you expect. Wouldn't you be happier knowing when that takes place? I would.
I'm not even going to waste my time proof-reading this...
Had to edit it. I hate mis-spellings and bad grammar! Though I think I'm the only one here who does!
[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: 4mesh063 ]
Well, I know everyone has been dutifully meditating on the true meaning of the words "is" and "accuracy" at this point. Could it it mean different things to different people in their specific frame of reference.
Are we ever going to agree on "one way" (sanctioned by whoever) to test? NO
Here is the bottomline in my opinion. Is the person shooting the gun happy with the results based on the type of gun, conditions, shooter skill level? If so then OK.
If the gun is going to be used in a formal type of competition, NRA Highpower, F class, 1k BR, 600 yard etc, you will soon validate in your own mind (and everyone elses) whether your testing and accuracy standards meet the test.
We have some people that do very intrinsic things to their guns, barrels and loads. Special ways to break in barrels, how to sort bullets, duplex powder loads, weighing primers, lucky underwear etc.
The lucky underwear guys we put on the downwind benches for the 3-5 day matches and just try to read the "fume plume" for wind, easier to see than the mirage!
Are we having fun yet?
BH
Are we ever going to agree on "one way" (sanctioned by whoever) to test? NO
Here is the bottomline in my opinion. Is the person shooting the gun happy with the results based on the type of gun, conditions, shooter skill level? If so then OK.
If the gun is going to be used in a formal type of competition, NRA Highpower, F class, 1k BR, 600 yard etc, you will soon validate in your own mind (and everyone elses) whether your testing and accuracy standards meet the test.
We have some people that do very intrinsic things to their guns, barrels and loads. Special ways to break in barrels, how to sort bullets, duplex powder loads, weighing primers, lucky underwear etc.
The lucky underwear guys we put on the downwind benches for the 3-5 day matches and just try to read the "fume plume" for wind, easier to see than the mirage!
Are we having fun yet?
BH
michaelb
Member
Wyowhisper,
I am a BR shooter, I gave up hunting some years back; however, I place greater value in the marksman who looks downrange and "sees", then accurately "calls" his/her MOA correction...either holding or clicking for it. Of course assuming that the rifle/load is capable of performing as well as the marksman.
In measuring pure accuracy of a firearm...Mac Mcmillan's light varmint record, nine-thousandths of an inch @ 100 yards, would be what I would consider accurate and precise due to the repeatability of that group having five shots through a moving backer during a registered match.
Obviously these two examples are the extremes of both spectrums, but it is difficult to create a baseline when comparing such different factors, Heck I didn't even mention longer distance shooting say, beyond 300 yards. I suppose I can sum it up this way...If I were an elk or Whitetail with a 600 yard cushion on you or any of the other board members here, I'd be verrrry concerned about being tipped over regardless of number of shots fired and group size.
Good Shooting!! Michael
[ 03-04-2004: Message edited by: michaelb ]
I am a BR shooter, I gave up hunting some years back; however, I place greater value in the marksman who looks downrange and "sees", then accurately "calls" his/her MOA correction...either holding or clicking for it. Of course assuming that the rifle/load is capable of performing as well as the marksman.
In measuring pure accuracy of a firearm...Mac Mcmillan's light varmint record, nine-thousandths of an inch @ 100 yards, would be what I would consider accurate and precise due to the repeatability of that group having five shots through a moving backer during a registered match.
Obviously these two examples are the extremes of both spectrums, but it is difficult to create a baseline when comparing such different factors, Heck I didn't even mention longer distance shooting say, beyond 300 yards. I suppose I can sum it up this way...If I were an elk or Whitetail with a 600 yard cushion on you or any of the other board members here, I'd be verrrry concerned about being tipped over regardless of number of shots fired and group size.
Good Shooting!! Michael
[ 03-04-2004: Message edited by: michaelb ]
W
*WyoWhisper*
Guest
4mesh,
My post wasn't to antagonize anyone. It was indirectly directed at people who continually compared everything myself or anyone posted to 1,000 br.. that prompted me to 1. Get a little upset 2. Ask just what is the standard for rifles. not just one discipline of rifle either.
I guess you missed me repeatedly posting that....
I am sure that heating a barrel up will change A LOT of characteristics in a rifle.. but what others and myself have asked is "how many times do you actually shoot a hot barrel"? Varminters.. well I am one but I rarely shoot a hot barrel.... BR guys .. well sure they shoot a hot barrel but again the rifle isn't a br rifle.... That's why others and myself have said why couldn't things be kept in perspective.
Phil I haven't spent 6 pages arguing...last time I check numerous individuals posted here...
""if you can shoot 3 shots into whatever off a bipod, then you of all people must agree that there is very little handicap given up by the prone shooter to the BR shooter. How much smaller do you think a BR shooter can shoot at the ranges you posted"".....
I don't know how you shoot from a bi-pod maybe you have rear bag for a rest and I don't know what rifles you shoot but you mean to tell me all your rifles shoot the same from a bench and a bi-pod in field conditions?? Seriously, you mean that? If it is so easy and there is nothing given up to shooting off a pi-pod why don't more 1K br shooters do that at a match... ummm let me think.. because maybe you get better results from a bench made of concrete and there are less variables to deal with.. well then I guess they don't need a prone match and a BR match.... just throw 'em all together...sheesh common really...
""You guys act as if this gun is some sort of national shrine.""
Well, maybe in some respects, but you see I work pretty F'ing hard for my money and don't have a lot to just throw around. When I have something exaclty the way I like it .. I'm not afraid to brag about it or tell people how happy I am .. I mean that's what some of this space is for .. correct?
"" I've seen photos from YOU showing a pickup with a bail of hay and a guest wild animal in the bed. You don't honestly think I'm gonna believe that you haul hay in that truck? My God! It might get a scratch in the bed, Then what will you do? ""
Not sure is this is sarcasm or not...
Ummm, yes I do haul hay from that truck. I feed the stock from it daily... not sure what world you live in but here our trucks no matter how nice work for a living... and I have a spray in bed liner.. so scratches are irrelevant...
But that doesn't mean I want to go out andheat my barrel up all this time just to see how long it will last ..... you in all you wealthiness may have $500 at any given time for you to **** away .. I surly don't
I realize there are very objective opinions and very few "one and only one answers..." And I am not sure where I ****ed and moaned about a response I got. unless it was not kept in relevance to the type of rifle being used...
I try really hard not to name names here as I do generally like everyone here and this is the Internet so typically people get really offended when you specify or point them out.... and I believe I explained to Boyd I was not trying to single him out.. my intentions were not to upset anyone or hurt their feelings... but I wanted to discuss my view of things and well I'm just not always as politically correct as I need to be.. I can be very PC.. but I wasn't under the impression I needed to be here....
You can single me out everytime.. matter of fact I'd prefer it from you...
""Lets say that your gun exhibits a change of impact after firing several rounds. (Just for the sake of arguement.) Now, what shot does that change take place on? 4? 5? 10? 20? Where? Lets say for the sake of arguement that it's on shot # 4. Now, you shoot 3 today. You go hunting at great range tomorow and guess what, your barrel is NOT pointing where you think it is and no matter how good a "Doper" you are, shot 1 is NOT where you expect. Wouldn't you be happier knowing when that takes place? I would.""
Well, Phil... I have fired over 40 rounds without cleaning that rifle and it hasn't changed POI yet.. how many more should I fire to be sure?
You talk as though nothing that anyone says, does or shoots impresses you... well if we could only be as intelligent as you and as skilled as you then maybe you'd feel better...
Who am I to say I can shoot a 5" group at 1000 yards, maybe I can or maybe I can't. I sure as **** ain't gonna **** on someone's parade who shoots a good group unless I am sure I can do better.. There are a lot of really great shooters here some of which we don't even know of because they haven't, won't or can't post the pictures... who am I to judge unless I have done at least what they have or at least bettered it shooting the way they have...
Maybe I and others have been taken back a bit by the fact you act as if you could run out your door lay down and fire a 3 shot 2" group at 400 yards from a bi-pod ( no rear BR bag either ) without much effort... and hell that's child play right.. well then go do it and show me the results.. and if you can do it, or better yet, do better... PLEASE (I and I am serious ) explain to me your technique cause I deffinitly want to know what I am doing wrong...
I don't have that much ego and I am not to proud to ask for help....
My post wasn't to antagonize anyone. It was indirectly directed at people who continually compared everything myself or anyone posted to 1,000 br.. that prompted me to 1. Get a little upset 2. Ask just what is the standard for rifles. not just one discipline of rifle either.
I guess you missed me repeatedly posting that....
I am sure that heating a barrel up will change A LOT of characteristics in a rifle.. but what others and myself have asked is "how many times do you actually shoot a hot barrel"? Varminters.. well I am one but I rarely shoot a hot barrel.... BR guys .. well sure they shoot a hot barrel but again the rifle isn't a br rifle.... That's why others and myself have said why couldn't things be kept in perspective.
Phil I haven't spent 6 pages arguing...last time I check numerous individuals posted here...
""if you can shoot 3 shots into whatever off a bipod, then you of all people must agree that there is very little handicap given up by the prone shooter to the BR shooter. How much smaller do you think a BR shooter can shoot at the ranges you posted"".....
I don't know how you shoot from a bi-pod maybe you have rear bag for a rest and I don't know what rifles you shoot but you mean to tell me all your rifles shoot the same from a bench and a bi-pod in field conditions?? Seriously, you mean that? If it is so easy and there is nothing given up to shooting off a pi-pod why don't more 1K br shooters do that at a match... ummm let me think.. because maybe you get better results from a bench made of concrete and there are less variables to deal with.. well then I guess they don't need a prone match and a BR match.... just throw 'em all together...sheesh common really...
""You guys act as if this gun is some sort of national shrine.""
Well, maybe in some respects, but you see I work pretty F'ing hard for my money and don't have a lot to just throw around. When I have something exaclty the way I like it .. I'm not afraid to brag about it or tell people how happy I am .. I mean that's what some of this space is for .. correct?
"" I've seen photos from YOU showing a pickup with a bail of hay and a guest wild animal in the bed. You don't honestly think I'm gonna believe that you haul hay in that truck? My God! It might get a scratch in the bed, Then what will you do? ""
Not sure is this is sarcasm or not...
Ummm, yes I do haul hay from that truck. I feed the stock from it daily... not sure what world you live in but here our trucks no matter how nice work for a living... and I have a spray in bed liner.. so scratches are irrelevant...
But that doesn't mean I want to go out andheat my barrel up all this time just to see how long it will last ..... you in all you wealthiness may have $500 at any given time for you to **** away .. I surly don't
I realize there are very objective opinions and very few "one and only one answers..." And I am not sure where I ****ed and moaned about a response I got. unless it was not kept in relevance to the type of rifle being used...
I try really hard not to name names here as I do generally like everyone here and this is the Internet so typically people get really offended when you specify or point them out.... and I believe I explained to Boyd I was not trying to single him out.. my intentions were not to upset anyone or hurt their feelings... but I wanted to discuss my view of things and well I'm just not always as politically correct as I need to be.. I can be very PC.. but I wasn't under the impression I needed to be here....
You can single me out everytime.. matter of fact I'd prefer it from you...
""Lets say that your gun exhibits a change of impact after firing several rounds. (Just for the sake of arguement.) Now, what shot does that change take place on? 4? 5? 10? 20? Where? Lets say for the sake of arguement that it's on shot # 4. Now, you shoot 3 today. You go hunting at great range tomorow and guess what, your barrel is NOT pointing where you think it is and no matter how good a "Doper" you are, shot 1 is NOT where you expect. Wouldn't you be happier knowing when that takes place? I would.""
Well, Phil... I have fired over 40 rounds without cleaning that rifle and it hasn't changed POI yet.. how many more should I fire to be sure?
You talk as though nothing that anyone says, does or shoots impresses you... well if we could only be as intelligent as you and as skilled as you then maybe you'd feel better...
Who am I to say I can shoot a 5" group at 1000 yards, maybe I can or maybe I can't. I sure as **** ain't gonna **** on someone's parade who shoots a good group unless I am sure I can do better.. There are a lot of really great shooters here some of which we don't even know of because they haven't, won't or can't post the pictures... who am I to judge unless I have done at least what they have or at least bettered it shooting the way they have...
Maybe I and others have been taken back a bit by the fact you act as if you could run out your door lay down and fire a 3 shot 2" group at 400 yards from a bi-pod ( no rear BR bag either ) without much effort... and hell that's child play right.. well then go do it and show me the results.. and if you can do it, or better yet, do better... PLEASE (I and I am serious ) explain to me your technique cause I deffinitly want to know what I am doing wrong...
I don't have that much ego and I am not to proud to ask for help....
jb1000br
Official LRH Sponsor
michael--I was originally planning to, but i just switched to a 175 load with varget to reach 1000--the load pictured was 168's and they are keyholing in the paper at 1022yds--my 5 shot group at 1000 was about 7" wide and 14" high--ES was not good either.
THe 175 45 varget load im just starting to play with seems to be a good long range prospect, but I have not shot it enough to warrant a 400 mile trip and all the costs involved, to embarrass myself just yet.
That saturday there is a groundhog shoot in Lewistown Pa that i will be shooting (100, 300 and 500yds)--when i see what it can do at 500yds then i'll try 1K.
I guess it comes down to lack of confidence in the new load just yet--I have only shot about 10 shots past 100yds with it as of now. With a little more trigger time i would be going--but maybe Tom will have another one sometime this year.
JB
THe 175 45 varget load im just starting to play with seems to be a good long range prospect, but I have not shot it enough to warrant a 400 mile trip and all the costs involved, to embarrass myself just yet.
That saturday there is a groundhog shoot in Lewistown Pa that i will be shooting (100, 300 and 500yds)--when i see what it can do at 500yds then i'll try 1K.
I guess it comes down to lack of confidence in the new load just yet--I have only shot about 10 shots past 100yds with it as of now. With a little more trigger time i would be going--but maybe Tom will have another one sometime this year.
JB
a.JR
Well-Known Member
Wyo,First of i think your gun shoots great but i also think what your argueing about is irrelevant,it seems obvious your not going to compete in any 600yd or 1K bench matchs at this point in time with your rifle and i'm not going to take my 65lbs H/gun across the fields to shoot a deer so unless 1 of us changes his mind they can't and should not be compared...From your original post,the amount of shots in a group is only pertinent to the intended use of the rifle, in your case 3 from a cold barrel and mine 16 to 18 shots from a hot barrel..Good shooting in 2004..JR..Jeff Rogers
W
*WyoWhisper*
Guest
Jeff,
exactly.. but in respect to each type of situation or rifle...
what could be a criteria for determining if the rifle/load/shooter combinations is accurate? or a good rifle, great rifle, screamer rifle??
ie:
stock hunting rifle.. 1 MOA at 100 ect.
semi-custom .75 MOA at 100 etc.??
custom hunting/tactical .5 MOA at 100 etc.?
Br custom .25 MOA at 100 etc?
maybe there are just to many opinions for everyone to establish a "median" or "starting" point.. I dunno....
exactly.. but in respect to each type of situation or rifle...
what could be a criteria for determining if the rifle/load/shooter combinations is accurate? or a good rifle, great rifle, screamer rifle??
ie:
stock hunting rifle.. 1 MOA at 100 ect.
semi-custom .75 MOA at 100 etc.??
custom hunting/tactical .5 MOA at 100 etc.?
Br custom .25 MOA at 100 etc?
maybe there are just to many opinions for everyone to establish a "median" or "starting" point.. I dunno....
Wyo,
I'm still at work and will be for a while. I have 2 photos to send, but, my hard disk in my pc at home died yesterday and All I have there is my server which has no applications on it. My scanner is not connected to the server either and it won't be. It may be a few days, but I'll post a group of 5, fired with no rear rest from a bedded but otherwise dead bone stock 22-250 rem VS at 400 yards (I think it was that or 425)
And, I agree that there are too many criteria and too many opinions to come up with what is considered "good"
My machine needs attending.
I'm still at work and will be for a while. I have 2 photos to send, but, my hard disk in my pc at home died yesterday and All I have there is my server which has no applications on it. My scanner is not connected to the server either and it won't be. It may be a few days, but I'll post a group of 5, fired with no rear rest from a bedded but otherwise dead bone stock 22-250 rem VS at 400 yards (I think it was that or 425)
And, I agree that there are too many criteria and too many opinions to come up with what is considered "good"
My machine needs attending.
a.JR
Well-Known Member
Wyo,I don't think there is a set critera needed ,it is either what your happy with OR what is required to do the job at hand..I shot some years ago with a professional game meat hunter ,taking wild goat ,wild boar and Kangaroo he used a 223w for everything ..The Roo has to be head shot by law,the boar was taken just behind the ears in the neck because the German's want the head to eat as well and the goat taken in the head because it's no chance of needing a second shot..This is a business remember so costs are a critera but at no time was there a requirement for better than a 1 moa rifle as the roo head is the smallest target ,it gives approx a 3inch critical area and is taken usually at 250 yds..In all the time i shot with this guy he never missed and never required a 2nd shot as a matter of fact the 1st roo i shot for him was at app 250 yds with his gun and he said after that we had better rezero it, just by seeing(naked eye) how the animal fell and he was absolutely correct ,it was hitting an 1 1/4in to the right and 3/4 in low exactly as he called it..I would have to say that your gun is up to the task of taking all the game u need ,happy hunting..JR..Jeff Rogers
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>i'm not going to take my 65lbs H/gun across the fields to shoot a deer <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who said anything about a 65 pound gun???
a.JR
Well-Known Member
Boyd ,sorry if i mislead here ,we don't have a 10 shot match in AUST for lightgun.As the original conversation was about Tactical Vs 1K bench guns i automaticaly assumed we were talking of Heavy Guns(10 shot)..I do appoligise as i am only used to the IBS format..JR..Jeff Rogers
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>As the original conversation was about Tactical Vs 1K bench guns <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jeff,the original conversation was Tactical Vs Factory guns.Not BR guns.
