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michaelb
Member
JB1000br,
Are ya gonna take that rifle to the .308 Winchester challenge at the Ohio BR range? That target is pretty good.
Michael
[ 03-04-2004: Message edited by: michaelb ]
Are ya gonna take that rifle to the .308 Winchester challenge at the Ohio BR range? That target is pretty good.
Michael
[ 03-04-2004: Message edited by: michaelb ]
a.JR
Well-Known Member
Boyd ,I beg to differ sir in the opening post by Wyo he Says "BR shooters how many sighters do you fire before you start shooting groups ",then Milanuk states "BR shooters sometimes it seems like they have taken over and imposed their standards on this board",then Wyo again"the guidelines and standards seem to be Williamsport 10 shot strings",awhile later from AJ300mag"their trying to compare it to a rifle which is built for the sole purpose of shooting tiny groups at 1000yds" Lots of other quotes about BR /Tactical/hunting But it was you who steered the conversation towards the Factory thing but certainly not where Wyo started the way i see it..Wyo and i seem to see eye to eye on this subject but not you and I Huh!..JR..Jeff Rogers
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
This whole thread "started" a few different threads ago.With me telling Ric to shoot 5 next time..So this thread is all Wyo's fault....Good enough
W
*WyoWhisper*
Guest
Hey, I have no problem owning up to this.. get mad at me , or call me a jerk .. or worse.. not a big deal to me.. we've all stirred the pot from time to time...maybe this was the wrong thing to do/say, whatever but I own up to the responsibility .. and again, I ment no harm in this or meant to start a feud or hurt anyones feelings, reguardless of what 4mesh thinks...
But for the record.. Boyd it wasn't just your comment... this was a feeling/question I ( and obviously others) have had for some time NOT just your specific comment...
I don't hate all BR shooters. I do not have less respect for them or what they do... I was just wondering why we always compared rifle results to their standards and why can't we establish different standards for different rifles...
Good GOD, do I need to personally appologize to everyone I offended??? If thats what I got to do I will, I guess.....
I still think that maybe.... there can be a "guideline" that wil let a guy know if his rifle ( whatever it is ) has the accuracy potential he's after/wants/expects....
But for the record.. Boyd it wasn't just your comment... this was a feeling/question I ( and obviously others) have had for some time NOT just your specific comment...
I don't hate all BR shooters. I do not have less respect for them or what they do... I was just wondering why we always compared rifle results to their standards and why can't we establish different standards for different rifles...
Good GOD, do I need to personally appologize to everyone I offended??? If thats what I got to do I will, I guess.....
I still think that maybe.... there can be a "guideline" that wil let a guy know if his rifle ( whatever it is ) has the accuracy potential he's after/wants/expects....
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
I am late at this party and certainly have not read all of the posts but Wyo, this is an ongoing debate that really has no end.
For me, I want to be able to accomplish the tasks, competitive or sporting, with the rig I am using at the longest range required.
This is a very general statement but covers what is relavent. If you want to win, then you have to have the equipment that is good enough to win whether it is shooting, skiing, boating, car racing, or golf.
Pretty stupid to ask a slug gun hunter that he needs an MOA shotgun when he is only going to shoot Bambi out of a tree stand 50 paces away.
Just as silly that a 10shot group BR match would be contested with a rifle that sprays after 5rds due to barrel heat.
Fit the rifle to the task and learn how to shoot that rifle well to accomplish the task. Big or small groups, 3rds or 10 is like deciding which is the best tire to use when comparing NHRA, F1, and NASCAR. They are completely not relevant.
For my walkabout hunting rifle, I shot 3 to 4 2 shots over the same target letting the barrel cool between each two shots. Very consistent, will hit game as far as I want to go. However, after 4 rds in a row, barrel warps badly and groups go south. For this application, I don't expect to shoot more then a couple of rds anyways so my accuracy requirement has been met.
For a PD gun, where you could shoot your barrel red hot, I would want a rifle barrel that stayed consistent through long strings. Tiny groups would not be relevant, just small enough to ventilate the critter.
For a tactical/Coyote type LR rifle, cold barrel shot is critical and as long as the bullet gets into the target zone on each and every shot, good to go.
And so it goes...We are obsessed with teeny tiny groups at this time. In time that will pass, and another criteria will come into fashion.
As long as we have fun along the way, burn powder and only worry about what you feel is important.
Jerry
For me, I want to be able to accomplish the tasks, competitive or sporting, with the rig I am using at the longest range required.
This is a very general statement but covers what is relavent. If you want to win, then you have to have the equipment that is good enough to win whether it is shooting, skiing, boating, car racing, or golf.
Pretty stupid to ask a slug gun hunter that he needs an MOA shotgun when he is only going to shoot Bambi out of a tree stand 50 paces away.
Just as silly that a 10shot group BR match would be contested with a rifle that sprays after 5rds due to barrel heat.
Fit the rifle to the task and learn how to shoot that rifle well to accomplish the task. Big or small groups, 3rds or 10 is like deciding which is the best tire to use when comparing NHRA, F1, and NASCAR. They are completely not relevant.
For my walkabout hunting rifle, I shot 3 to 4 2 shots over the same target letting the barrel cool between each two shots. Very consistent, will hit game as far as I want to go. However, after 4 rds in a row, barrel warps badly and groups go south. For this application, I don't expect to shoot more then a couple of rds anyways so my accuracy requirement has been met.
For a PD gun, where you could shoot your barrel red hot, I would want a rifle barrel that stayed consistent through long strings. Tiny groups would not be relevant, just small enough to ventilate the critter.
For a tactical/Coyote type LR rifle, cold barrel shot is critical and as long as the bullet gets into the target zone on each and every shot, good to go.
And so it goes...We are obsessed with teeny tiny groups at this time. In time that will pass, and another criteria will come into fashion.
As long as we have fun along the way, burn powder and only worry about what you feel is important.
Jerry
Hey, I have no problem owning up to this.. get mad at me , or call me a jerk .. or worse
OK your a jerk and a yellow cur dog
Actualy a lot of good answers have ben given,you have to look past the personal attacks and not be looking for a specific answer(there aint one).
If your next group is better than your last,your headed in the right direction
OK your a jerk and a yellow cur dog
Actualy a lot of good answers have ben given,you have to look past the personal attacks and not be looking for a specific answer(there aint one).
If your next group is better than your last,your headed in the right direction
jb1000br
Official LRH Sponsor
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> get mad at me , or call me a jerk .. or worse.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wyo...you "worse!!"
Wyo...you "worse!!"
WyoWhisper
You are tilting at windmills, asking a question that there is no one definitive answer. Do not pull your hair out trying to get on!!
You can put 10 guys in a room and get 10 answers. It goes back to my original post that you have to define it with what you are doing and are you happy with the results. If the answer is yes, then the gun is accurate for that purpose, if not then it is not accurate.
Hate being over simplistic, but no other way to explain it.
I shoot br and hunt sr and lr. Different guns and standards all around. I have hunted with a 4.5 lb ULA 7mm/08 that would shoot good 3/4" 3 shot groups and then start opening up. Guess what, it was very accurate and reliable for nice light tree stand 300 yard deer gun. Took a lot of deer with that gun.
Quit trying to figure it out, shoot enjoy yourself and be happy. Try different things and if they work fine, if not, oh well.
Good luck
BH
You are tilting at windmills, asking a question that there is no one definitive answer. Do not pull your hair out trying to get on!!
You can put 10 guys in a room and get 10 answers. It goes back to my original post that you have to define it with what you are doing and are you happy with the results. If the answer is yes, then the gun is accurate for that purpose, if not then it is not accurate.
Hate being over simplistic, but no other way to explain it.
I shoot br and hunt sr and lr. Different guns and standards all around. I have hunted with a 4.5 lb ULA 7mm/08 that would shoot good 3/4" 3 shot groups and then start opening up. Guess what, it was very accurate and reliable for nice light tree stand 300 yard deer gun. Took a lot of deer with that gun.
Quit trying to figure it out, shoot enjoy yourself and be happy. Try different things and if they work fine, if not, oh well.
Good luck
BH
Brent
Well-Known Member
1K BR shooters - Do you think your rigs with 3 shots at 100 yards should consistantly outshoot a 15-20 lb. custom hunting/tactical rig in good hands? If so, by how much?
Is a consistant 1 MOA rifle out at 1000 yards considered very good, in favorable conditions? What is considered very good?
Is a consistant 1 MOA rifle out at 1000 yards considered very good, in favorable conditions? What is considered very good?
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Brent
You said;
Is a consistant 1 MOA rifle out at 1000 yards considered very good, in favorable conditions? What is considered very good?
--------------------
Hunting and paper punching is two different animals here if that's what you were asking? You mentioned 1K BR shooters to begin with.
For the 1000 yard benchrest shooter, a 1 MOA rifle is not very good at all regardless if it's 3, 5 or 10 shots and in favorable conditions. A 10" agg won't win anything at the end of the season plus, that's for either 5 or 10 shots strings and not 3 shots.
If only shooting three shots at a paper target at 1000 yards, most "any" decent BR match rifle would/will produce 1/4 to 1/3 MOA most everytime out at 1000 yards but, we don't shot 3 shots.
On the other hand, if your LR "hunting" at 1000 yards and you hold a 1 MOA at that range, consistantly, with 3 shots, then that's good enough to get into the kill zone of most any big game animal your after.
We are now back to a 10" group with 3 shots.
By the way, that package went out yesterday.
Later
DC
You said;
Is a consistant 1 MOA rifle out at 1000 yards considered very good, in favorable conditions? What is considered very good?
--------------------
Hunting and paper punching is two different animals here if that's what you were asking? You mentioned 1K BR shooters to begin with.
For the 1000 yard benchrest shooter, a 1 MOA rifle is not very good at all regardless if it's 3, 5 or 10 shots and in favorable conditions. A 10" agg won't win anything at the end of the season plus, that's for either 5 or 10 shots strings and not 3 shots.
If only shooting three shots at a paper target at 1000 yards, most "any" decent BR match rifle would/will produce 1/4 to 1/3 MOA most everytime out at 1000 yards but, we don't shot 3 shots.
On the other hand, if your LR "hunting" at 1000 yards and you hold a 1 MOA at that range, consistantly, with 3 shots, then that's good enough to get into the kill zone of most any big game animal your after.
We are now back to a 10" group with 3 shots.
By the way, that package went out yesterday.
Later
DC
Brent
Well-Known Member
Darryl,
That's the type of opinions I'd like to hear more about, and thank you!
So far we have:
.25 - .3 MOA for 3 shots at 1K in any good BR rifle. I assume this would be an average of a several three shot groups, but if you mean this as a MAX please do correct me.
I'll look back through this thread and see what we have so far for suggestions and kind of subtotal and summerize.
I think everyone has qualified their opinions do a certain degree, and yes, any number is likely to be disagreed with to a certain extent, so I propose a MOA "range" be decided upon instead. Those of you who disagree that a majority agreement can be reached on this, you may well be right, so I'll post the results in POLL type form too.
To me, this is very interesting. A side benifit, it would also settle a lot of arguements on whether or not someones rifle is really up to what it could be.
I anticipate this thread to hit 20 pages over the next week, and hopefully "keep" growing to more solidify the results.
If you don't think it can be done, is totally invalid, or otherwise useless, I'd hope you just state it and why, so others could consider it, then move on. This thread can be very productive with more and more constructive input as to what your definition of good, great, so-so, etc shooting capabilty really is, so please contribute to the results, or forever hold your peace.
That's the type of opinions I'd like to hear more about, and thank you!
So far we have:
.25 - .3 MOA for 3 shots at 1K in any good BR rifle. I assume this would be an average of a several three shot groups, but if you mean this as a MAX please do correct me.
I'll look back through this thread and see what we have so far for suggestions and kind of subtotal and summerize.
I think everyone has qualified their opinions do a certain degree, and yes, any number is likely to be disagreed with to a certain extent, so I propose a MOA "range" be decided upon instead. Those of you who disagree that a majority agreement can be reached on this, you may well be right, so I'll post the results in POLL type form too.
To me, this is very interesting. A side benifit, it would also settle a lot of arguements on whether or not someones rifle is really up to what it could be.
I anticipate this thread to hit 20 pages over the next week, and hopefully "keep" growing to more solidify the results.
If you don't think it can be done, is totally invalid, or otherwise useless, I'd hope you just state it and why, so others could consider it, then move on. This thread can be very productive with more and more constructive input as to what your definition of good, great, so-so, etc shooting capabilty really is, so please contribute to the results, or forever hold your peace.
Brent
Well-Known Member
Here's another post from BRC.
Bill Ohio wrote:
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=17330426ff48d099e7fc3814783de777&threadid=11387
Anybody who can agg close to 1 MOA or better at 600y or 1,000y has a good shot at being in the top handful of shooters at most matches.
Bill Ohio wrote:
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=17330426ff48d099e7fc3814783de777&threadid=11387
Anybody who can agg close to 1 MOA or better at 600y or 1,000y has a good shot at being in the top handful of shooters at most matches.
