Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Anybody who can agg close to 1 MOA or better at 600y or 1,000y has a good shot at being in the top handful of shooters at most matches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Brent,my 10 match 100 shot group agg was 10.44 inch's(3rd).And I believe an agg of 9.7 inch's took top spot...The six match group agg was won with an 8.18 agg....In the six match group agg I finshed 14th with a 9.35.....

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

I'm gonna have to agree with Brent... lets break it down simply...

A out of the box Factory Hunting weight Rifle should be term accurate if it can shoot factory or handloaded ammo into ?? ie:1" groups 2" groups?

an out of the factory Varmint style rifle ( Sendero, VS, Coyote, Stealth ) with factory or handloaded ammo into?

A semi custom rifle ie: factory rifle that has a custom barrel or accurizing work done to it should be able to shoot into ??

A custom hunting rifle "sporter type" should be able to shoot into ??

etc.. etc....

I can't believe that there cannot be some sort of agreable accuracy standard for these rifles? Surly someone has to see my point... this is not to start an argument but to see what the "general concensus" is between all involved some give and take about what would be accurate ...

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Brent

Since my wife and I keep the stats, I will disagree with the Ohio poster about 1 MOA or 10" winning ANYTHING at Williamsport.

For instance, the top 19 placers in the 6 match group aggregate (light guns) in 2003 were "all" under 10"

1st to 9th were 8" aggs and 10th to 19th were all in the 9" and that's only in the light guns of 16 1/2 lbs.

The heavy gun 6 match group aggs went like this.
The 1st four placers were 6" aggs.
The next 16 placers were all 7" aggs
The next 13 placers were all 8" aggs and
The next 17 placers were all 9" aggs.

I'm not throwing stones here just stating facts.
Keep in mind there are a lot of shooters at Williamsport and the competition level is extremely high.

So for someone to make a statement that to shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yards will win something, they have NEVER shot at Williamsport for the entire season.

Again I'll say, 10" aggs won't get you a cup of coffee up on that mountain top range.

Now if you figure in the 10 match aggs the groups will grow but, the winners are less then 10" or 1 MOA for all ten matches and rotating benches and relayes for the entire season. You don't get to choose the best conditions to shoot in. It's the luck of the draw or I should say the luck of the computer draw.

Hope that explains it a bit. Is that what your after?

Later
DC

 

[Darryl Cassel]

As an addition to my last post

Many times over the last 16 years shooting at Williamport, I have seen targets measured that had the 1st 5 shots (the pit crew plots the shots as they come in) were in 1 1/2" and I have seen, as Boyd has, the 1st 3 shots in one inch and this happens quite a lot during most any match and in most relays to.

So with accuracy like that, you can get an idea of what a good Benchrest 1000 yard rifle will do.

Like Bounty Hunter said, it's like trying to match up apples and footballs when you put a non-benchrest rifle against most "any" of the 1000 yard bench guns used today.

Don't know how you would break down the accuracy range of all rifles and their classes but, the benchrest guns will do some serious shooting. Even the heavy guns will show up the 16 1/2 lb benchrest guns in the matches.

I've never seen a factory rifle or, a tactical rifle do well in a 1000 yard benchrest match for the "entire" season.
They just were not built for the benchrest style of shooting and also 10 shots to boot. Most are built for a hunting situations and that's what they do well.

To put an accuracy range in MOA on one style of rifle compared to another, I think would be extremely hard to do.
It depends alot on the shooter and his handloading ability but, the benchrest rifle has the edge to start with tolorances that are extremely tight and built for benchrest competitions.

Later
DC

 

[Darryl Cassel]

[ 03-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

I am not comparing any rifle to any other rifle I am looking for a "rule of thumb" for each class of rifles...

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Ric

I just explained in my post that it would be extremely hard to do with shooters being different, their handloading tecniques may be different, barrels are different, conditions are different in every area of the country and on each day.

Some factory guns will shoot fantastic groups right out of the box while, others won't. This is true with tactical guns to.
Some may shoot well while others don't.
Same with benchrest guns to. Some do better then others.

So to make a blanket statement or "guess" as to what a certain rifle or class of rifle "should" do is not possible.
It would only be a guess by "anyone" doing it.

Results of the rifles is the important issue here not something that we would all be guessing on.
If someone's gun shoots good enough for them, that's all that is important.

Later
DC

 

[a.JR]

Wyo,The only way i can see your "benchmark" idea getting sorted out is to have a "postal competition"..Set rules for classes,a target style,2 distances say 600 and 1000,number of shots ETC,put it on over a coupla months so people have time to enter..JR..Jeff Rogers..ps..Mabye even an entry fee that could be given to charity after the comp is over,I got my $5 out ready,bring it on ,i'll get more Aussies to cough up as well !!

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Ric

As an addition here.

The "ONLY" way a person could even begin to come close to having a resonable way of know/guessing the capailities of each class of rifle is to----Have the best marksman in the country Shot "each" rifle or class of rifles in a tunnel such as the 300 meter tunnel at Sierra. They could also pick the best condtions at 1000 yards and test it.

That's the trouble with 1000 yard compitions, you don't get to pick and choose when you shoot. The conditions may be at their worst and that's when you have to shoot in your relay.
If we could pick the time of day to hold matches it would be just before dark and you would see records fall almost every match.

To have a grip on expected accuracy from each class of rifles will not be proven by a Postal match either.
As mentioned before, all rifles are not created equal even in the "same" class format. One person may have a better shooting rifle in the same class and also shoot it in better conditions then the other shooter. This proves nothing at all.

Expected accuracy is that of which you are satisfied, because you are the one who paid the price for it. That's all that counts. If your rifle kills at the range you want to hunt and that makes you happy, that's all that matters.

Who cares what the expected/guessing accuracy potential of a given rifle is? There are exceptional factory rifles just as there are customs.
Joe smuck may have a factory rifle that beats other factory rifles of the same brand and calibers just like some customs have better accuracy then one built by the same gunsmith and in the same caliber.
To many variables to make a guess on accuracy potential.

Later
DC

[ 03-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[a.JR]

Yea Wyo,i hind sight Darryl is right,the only way it could work is if you had lots of entry's in each class then it would be a average of the aggs in a variety of conditions across the world..JR..Jeff Rogers..still, it might be fun

 

[deergrunt]

Is this a long range hunting board, or a 1000 yard PA. bench club board? There is a difference.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Ok.. DC I see or hear what you are saying... here's and example..

lets say Brent is new here and says .. I wanna learn this LRH thing.. he gets advice to purchase a 300WM Sendero.... he gets home gets it zeroed.. and works up a load...

now he shoot a group... and posts it to the board... lets say it is 5 shots and measures .780 center to center...
he might get replies that say ..
" Yup brent thats a good load and acceptable accuracy for that factory rifle"
or
" brent, given that rifle on average they are capable of much better.. on average you can expect or should be able to average .550" " maybe you should tweek your load or look for a building defect"

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Ric

With all the information in the archives on different loads for most any big cartridge, and all the information a person can get here, I believe a newbie would not post to picture from a .780" group without experimenting a long time and seeing what the best groups are he can shoot. He should get it down to 1/2" and see if it will repeat that 5 shot group. He could then mention what his rifle did. He could also ask if it is capable of doing better which I would doubt.

If he can't seem to get the group down any further then the original .780", He should simply ask a question on the forum such as---
Hey fellows, I've tried this bullet and this powder in my new 300 WM Sendaro and I can only seem to get a .780" group. Now I know from past posts by others on this forum that I should be able to do better. Any suggestions?----
When asked in that manner, he will be overwelmed with information.

Theres no way to have a set standard or place a MOA expectation on "any" rifle.
They are all individuals like people and all have or will take a different load.
Some will NEVER shoot as well as others from the same Smith or manufacturer will, even in the SAME chambering.

As for the poster mentioning this as a LR hunting forum, someone else asked about benchrest shooters and their expectations at 1000 yards and it just so happens there are many of us on here from the Williamsport and Virginia 1000 yard clubs.
That's why we answered the question to us.

Later
DC

[ 03-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[BountyHunter]

Brent

Apples and footballs!

Chambers are different specs, mag versus single shot, ammo is not loaded for single shot, or climatic conditions etc. No comparison. Tighter tolerances equals less variables and more accuracy with decreasing reliability for combat. Inverse relationship depending on your goal.

I get a real hoot out of all these "tactical guns" marketed for big bucks and by people in many cases would not know a tactical gun if it slapped them in the face. Seen to many of them come to Fort Bragg and other places with the latest "shoot to 2000 yards with 4 MOA elevation" and leave holding their butt in a sling.

Real tactical conditions will break a crow bar if at all possible.

A tactical gun has to be reliable first and reasonably accurate second.

First off I would not want a hunting or tactical gun built to the tight tolerances of gun and ammo of a BR gun. It would not be reliable!!!

A hunting/tactical gun has to be reliable first under all conditions (particularily tactical) which means sand, grit, dirt, mud, rain and snow etc and a man knows he can bet his life the gun will work. That is a very high standard and not many civilian gunsmiths have gone there. We have a lot of people building what they "market" as a tactical gun and that is OK. A local mechanic can build a NASCAR car, but that don't make it so until it runs and wins competitively on the NASCAR circuit.

Having used real tactical guns for quite a few years, I can say I would not choose to take many of those after market tactical guns into combat. They have never been tested to ensure that they will function 120% of the time and deliver "acceptable" accuracy, which is not BR accuracy. They might be great to play with in tactical competitions and such, but do not think I would bet my life on them. I am sure there will be those who say they would bet their life, knowing that they will never have to. Big difference!!!

I would leave that up to proven Army and USMC armorers who have years of experience building real combat tactical rifles that are proven in all conditions, countries, climates and keep on working.

Now before all the guys who have tacticals or build them jump up and whoop and hollar, I will simply state if you have built over 100 rifles used in real tactical combat and have proven to be 100% effective, then you have got something to talk about and my hat is off to you with the deepest respect.

If not, then you build or bought a very nice looking, great shooting gun that is someones copy of a tactical rifle and that is all, but not something I am willing to "play I bet my life on!".

Do not get me wrong, I like them, love to shoot them, but not a real tactical gun for serious life and death use in my opinion without some serious wringing out if that is what you want to do.

BH