Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Boyd Heaton · Feb 28, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Good luck to you again this year Boyd. Hope you do even better then last year unless your shooting against me and in the same relay. My lawnmower is tuned up Pal.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good luck to you also.I hope we shoot in the same relay every match.That way I could find out just how good you really are

.You seem to shoot better when we are on the line together.I hope you put the right "TUNE UP" kit in old mower of yours.You are gonna need it..

...............P.S...I just want a chance to get my 20 back

[ 02-28-2004: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

baldeagle713 · Feb 28, 2004

D.C. IF your the lawn mower, I guess Id better brake out the BUSH HOG. LOL
Hope to see ya all soon. OH yea. If ya whanta see what you'll be up against look at
"Here's mine where's yours" under the Equipment thred. I'll say one thing Boyd and D.C. are a real Hoot to shoot with. Wyo: I can't make it in Aug eather, as I'm Boyd assistant in the pits at Williamsport I have obligations then. By the way the highway goes both ways ya know.

STL_Shooter · Feb 28, 2004

I'm fresh out of words...

*WyoWhisper* · Feb 28, 2004

John,

Hey glad to see you post on here! I know you have alot to contribute! I missed your program on TV the other day will it air again?!?
I had a talk with my .30 Caliber's and they said your .22 cal. doesn't stand a chance next time we meet at the Shooting Complex!! ;-) 1143 yards is just a chip shot for the 300 WSM LOL!!! Hope to see ya there again!

Jody,

If the 1000 yard BR season wasn't during my tourist season you would see me there for a match or 2 and I wouldn't be shooting a "BR" rifle.. I'd be shootng one of my "non-br-tacticals" just to see how they'd stack up...

Boyd,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The statement was made because of the post that was directed toward me.About the factory gun.And not seeing proof.I don't have to prove myself to anyone <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't doubting your ability to shoot.. you obviously can shoot from a rest type situation... I was looking for groups from you or anyone who thought that shooting from a bi-pod is the same as shooting from a rest and/or anyone who has shot groups from their bi-pod supported rifle at the distances I had shot. If someone shot as well or better I'd love to see it.. mostly because I would want to chew their ear a bit to see what techniques they employ as that technique would have obviously been better then the techniques I was/am using!
Boyd I don't have a problem with you, hell I had your back numerous times when you were getting blasted on other boards...
What I was tired of "hearing" and not necessarily from you and not necessarily about my groups were coments from guys who would comapare a guys group shot from a bi-pod or hunting type situation who had shot 3 or 5 shots and the coments would be in the relms of .. "nice but now shoot 10" or "nice , but now shoot 10 at 1022" Always in comparison to the 1K Br situation...and to my knowledge they hadn't shot groups from a bi-pod.
That prompted me to inquire to everyone .. just what exactly is the criteria for good rifles, groups, or shooting from a specific type of rifle?

The other coment that tweeked me a bit was that you were so sure that 5 shots would have evolved in to a larger group...?? I honeslty don't think so as I shot another group at 900 yards that measured 5.5" ... I'm not so sure the 750 group would have been larger..

Also, I was wondering what you based your coment on that shooting from a bi-pod is the same as shooting from a bench with rests? I know you guys use the Muley pod and I have too.. but I have found that the angle of the pod and it's contact with the ground tends to let the rifle recoil inconsitiently...

I may just end up that way in the fall for a weekend or 2 .. ya never know I may just bring the A5 tactical and let it flex it's muscles against your guys refined BR rifles...if you have a shoot during the time I'm there..

[ 02-28-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]

Boyd Heaton · Feb 28, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The statement was made because of the post that was directed toward me.About the factory gun.And not seeing proof.I don't have to prove myself to anyone <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ric that statement was "NOT" directed toward you.. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What I was tired of "hearing" and not necessarily from you and not necessarily about my groups were coments from guys who would comapare a guys group shot from a bi-pod or hunting type situation who had shot 3 or 5 shots and the coments would be in the relms of .. "nice but not shoot 10" or "nice , but now shoot 10 at 1022" Alwyas in comparison to the 1K Br situation...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not once in this thread did I compare your group to a 1K Br situation.I just said try 5 the next time. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The other coment that tweeked me a bit was that you were so sure that 5 shot would have evolved in to a larger group...?? I honeslty don't think so as I shot another group at 900 yards that measured 5.5" ... I'm not so sure the 750 group would have been larger.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A 5.5 inch group at 900 yards is a decent group.Can you do that all the time?? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, I was wondering what you based your coment on that shooting from a bi-pod is the same as shoting from a bench with rests? I know you guys use the Muley pod and I have too.. but I have found that the angle of the pod and it's contact with the ground tends to let the rifle recoil inconsitiently...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A round bottom factory gun on a front rest with a rear bag.You have to hold the gun much the same way you do when using a bi-pod.Myself I would rather shoot unsupported in the rear and shoot off a bi-pod.Then trying to hold that d@%m factory gun in a rear bag

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Boyd I don't have a problem with you, hell I had you back numerous times when you were getting blasted on other boards...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't have a problem with you either.Just get a little testy this time of year.With Bald Eagle 713 spying on me

.Darryl saying he is gonna mow my grass.

.And you laying on the ground shooting groups at 900 yards.When the only place I can shoot is in a heated indoor 100 yard tunnel

.Lost my head for a few minutes

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I may just end up that way in the fall for a weekend or 2 .. ya never know I may just bring the A5 tactical and let it flex it's muscles against your guys refined BR rifles...if you have a shoot during the time I'm there..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are aways welcome to join us.You could even stay in my home if you wanted.One thing tho..Bring your head wrangler

...She can bunk with me

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>.. ya never know I may just bring the A5 tactical and let it flex it's muscles against your guys refined BR rifles.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now you're talking

Guest · Feb 29, 2004

A whole year has gone by and some of us still have a difficult time with other people's guns shooting well off a bi-pod. Could have sworn that road has already been traveled. I have seen rifle after rifle shoot sub 1/3 MOA at 607 yards at our range in calm wind conditions.

Now, on to something more useful.....

The best way to determine a rifle's accuracy potential is to do it in a way that a valid statistical analysis can be made. The type of shooting/hunting will determine what is the most valid way to test your system.

If you are hunting, group size is not as important as ACCURACY. Clean your rifle and foul it just as you would before a hunt. Let the rifle go totally cold. Shoot one shot. Do this 30 times and plot the vertical and horizontal deviation from your intended POI separately. You will now know more than any benchrester can tell you about the capability of your hunting rifle with you shooting it.

If you are shooting in group size competitions, and you fire five shots for record, do this thirty times, and have someone like Dave King analyze your data.

If you are shooting ten shot groups in competition, you will have to fire ten shot groups in a timely manner to get the heat management characteristics of your sytem as a valid influence in your tests.

Despite what some claim, ten shot groups for analyzing a hunting or tactical rifle is RIDICULOUS!!! Unless it takes 10 shots to kill something, some of us should learn how to structure more valid tests that more closely approximate the actual usage/performance of a particular system. Having a clue about the proper use of statistics to analyze random variation would not hurt either.

See you next year.

Darryl Cassel · Feb 29, 2004

True, 5 shot groups can get the effectivness of the rifle.

I only mentioned "if" that rifle ever was entered in a 1000 yard match that shot ten shots, I wondered how it would do?

Obviously shooting from a bench and correct fitting front and rear adjustable rests would most "probably" produce better groups yet since it does well from a bipod.

It was just a quuestion to STL who shoots the rifle and has had success with it.

Later
DC

John Burns · Feb 29, 2004

Boyd,

Thanks for the reply and I assumed you would not take any offense as none was meant. In my experience guys who can do it don't mind questions.

Ric,

My 22 (80 gr JLK @ 3450 fps)can dial on to over a mile if the temp is above 50 deg at our elevation. Food for thought. We are going to have to shoot when this storm goes by. Let me know what your schedule is as I can get away most times for important stuff like trigger pulling. We just finished the predator show with the 1078 yd coyote shot. I will try and get you a copy.

I am posting a new thread on a similar topic and hope everyone will help me out on this.

MAX · Mar 2, 2004

S1, I finally figured out what I like about you. Right or wrong, you're never in doubt!

Been by your new site a few times, looks like it has a solid foundation, best of luck with that. Has it been a year since you were here last?

a.JR · Mar 2, 2004

S1....,Do any of the "Rifle After Rifles" at 607yds you mention get entered into competitions?? Because this is very good (sub 1/3 moa) if duplicated by 4 targets would have won every 600 yd competition this year in the group section..Most of these events (and there only 5 shot groups)have been won at an agg of 3.5 ins or better approx regardless of what platform was used bipods or?..There is talk of a big money match coming up some where in the US shortly,mabye you should get a few of these shooters together and ggo get some of that cash..JR..Jeff Rogers

4mesh063 · Mar 2, 2004

I have no problem with anyones gun shooting well off a bipod. I've had a few myself and shot them rather well. I took a factory gun hunting one morning with 4 rounds in the mag, 1 in the pipe. Hoping to find a woodchuck or otherwise somewhere on the farm. Shot 1 was at a woodchuck, somewhere past 300 (High 3's) as that's my rule, no shots under 300. I don't remember how far it was but it's dead. Off a bipod. With 4 rounds remaining I kept going. Ranged some crows and laid down to take a shot. Shot 2, dead crow, Shot 3, Dead crow, Shot 4 miss, Shot 5 Dead crow. The closest crow was at 450+ yards. Now, this was very early in the morning and there were NO conditions by my estimations. So, I for one, can believe that cold barrel kills are entirely possible and on targets a lot smaller than a deer. I also beleive that if you are familiar with your gun, you should be able to shoot something at great range with a Bipod. I shot in an Fclass match just for fun one day last year with my 6.5 (that was torn down for horrible accuracy and had the barrel replaced under warranty). In that match, off a front rest only, I shot 1 sighter in the 8 ring and ALL MY OTHER SHOTS (spotted of course, as are done in Fclass matches) were in the 9/10 and x ring. I wouldn't dream of shooting that gun in a real match where anyone would keep track of my score. I only shot it because it was the only thing I had to shoot other than my normal 1K gun. This was done, laying in the wet grass, in the rain, in October with my ammo huddled under me so it wouldn't get wet.

The only thing I have a problem with is the photo of the "Bad Conditions" where I see FOG in the background! How many times have you seen fog in a 15mph wind? Where do they have that I wonder? Really bad conditions...

Then the question about "Boyd, How do you know that it would get bigger?" Well, what the hell do YOU think? If it's 4" now and you shoot more rounds, do you think it's gonna get to 3" ? Personally, I have never shot a 4" group of 3 shots, then continued to shoot more rounds and came up with a group that was smaller!

Why do 3 shot groups get no respect?

Well, this weekend I saw a 3 shot group at 1000yds (3 consecutive shots in a genuine 10-15mph wind) group in 1"

The next shots made the group BIGGER!

I think the trouble is less that anyone slights what is accomplished, just that they are difficult to impress. There are MANY people here who have done some remarkable things in all the shots they have fired over the years and when they don't fall over themselves congratulating you on what you feel is a monumental achievement, you take it personally and whine about people having no respect. All they are doing is calling it as they see it. I mean, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The way I see it, you have a "Misread the conditions" disclaimer on every target posted. Well, I didn't see that change, or I missed the windage a little. Do you have a rangefinder? Is the 7?? yards a guess?

How many times have you ever shot at game at long range? How many times have you missed? How many got away?

I think there is a possiblity that
your gun is a very good one. Someday, if you ever learn to listen, you will understand that if you have a gun that has a change of impact after 10 rounds, that you also have a gun that will change from day to day by the same amount or more. Until that day, we will never know if you have a great gun or not because you positivly refuse to shoot enough rounds to find out!

Guest · Mar 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The only thing I have a problem with is the photo of the "Bad Conditions" where I see FOG in the background! How many times have you seen fog in a 15mph wind? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those be clouds, man... Fog at 1000' AGL is called clouds...I am very familiar with the exact location of Ric's shooting area(Yes I have shot there)and I know how the wind blows. I have also NEVER seen fog in that particular area. Elevation approx 6000" ASL--Clouds yes, Fog no... Wind blows the clouds thru pretty fast, tho...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Someday, if you ever learn to listen, you will understand that if you have a gun that has a change of impact after 10 rounds, that you also have a gun that will change from day to day by the same amount or more. Until that day, we will never know if you have a great gun or not because you positivly refuse to shoot enough rounds to find out!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought we already covered that... Somebody tell me, didn't we already cover that?
As S1 said, shooting 10 shot groups from a hunting rifle is ridiculous... Who cares if the POI shifts on the tenth round. That doesn't mean it will shift from day to day. It only means it shifts after a certain amount of heat has built up. If you NEVER build that degree of heat during normal hunting conditions, then it is irrevelant information...

4mesh063 · Mar 2, 2004

Well Chris,

No "WE" didn't cover that. You covered that (up). Now, you can shoot 3 shot groups on different days till hell freezes over and then blame the wind and barometer for all the change. But, you could save a lot of time and wasted bullets by shooting till the gun is hot and see if it has a problem. I am here to tell you that if it changes POI after 20 rounds, then IT WILL CHANGE DAY TO DAY even if you notice it or not. If you have a gun that repeats, then if will repeat, hot or cold. That is the simple fact that is being missed here. I could care or less how many days you shoot the gun and then blame away all the POI troubles on winds and such. Then one day, Jupiter aligns with mars and peace will guide the planet and it shoots some shots real well. There is no way to verify the test that was advocated above, as, the conditions over a 700 yard range will NEVER stay nice and constant so you can tell. I am telling you that if the gun is well built, it WILL shoot however many shots you like, all in the same spot. If trouble arises with heat, it will arise other ways also.

My swift that I mentioned above, got tested with TWENTY rounds and it had a remington factory stick on it. It also got work on when it didn't pass the test and was fixed.

Boyd Heaton · Mar 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am telling you that if the gun is well built, it WILL shoot however many shots you like, all in the same spot. If trouble arises with heat, it will arise other ways also <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Could'nt have said it better myself

Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Boyd Heaton

Well-Known Member

baldeagle713

Well-Known Member

STL_Shooter

Well-Known Member

WyoWhisper

Guest

Boyd Heaton

Well-Known Member

Guest

Guest

Darryl Cassel

Well-Known Member

John Burns

Well-Known Member

MAX

Well-Known Member

a.JR

Well-Known Member

4mesh063

Well-Known Member

Guest

Guest

4mesh063

Well-Known Member

Boyd Heaton

Well-Known Member

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