Inconsistent rifle due to recoil/muzzle climb

[Dirty45]

I have tried h4831 and H1000.

Both have really produced good groups, but the same inconsistencies.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Is the inconsistency the same when everyone shoots it? And is the flyer always in the same basic place on the target? Does it always do it, even when shooting off of different types of bags or a bipod?

If you've tried H1000, then I wouldn't bother trying 7828...It's fairly close in burn rate.

 

[Dirty45]

It is the same when I've had a couple good shooters behind it. They made the same type comments about it wanting to climb or jump. It's very much like you said...snappy. Both off bipod and a good front rest and rear V bag. Doesn't matter prone or bench. Fliers have no specific location but just opens up...

 

[MudRunner2005]

I think barrel weight has a lot to do with it. A very thin and short rifle barrel will produce similar recoiling characteristics. How long and what profile is the barrel?

 

[SMK1000plus]

That style stock should not be the problem...That's about as straight-pull as any regular stock. They are referring to the drop-comb stocks like on the Weatherby Accumarks that the buttstock looks like it has a hump in it and it angles back down into your shoulder. I noticed this style of stock had a very violent "snappy" recoil impulse in my Accumark .257 Wby. especially from the bench. The stock you have shouldn't be causing this issue.

I agree with Mud on the stock. It is inline with and close enough to the axis of the bore, and the butt angle, heel to toe, compared to the that axis, looks correct at about 90°. The stock balance may be an issue, especially if it is disproportionately light up front.

I believe you could dampen the muzzle flip/jump some by changing the butt angle a bit, (shorten ONLY the toe about a 1/4" or so and leaving the heel at its present lenght) to ensure the toe isn't receiving more recoil force than the heel.

I also agree with the others that suggest a good side ported muzzle brake with top ports. It would drastically reduce the jump you are experiencing.

 

[SMK1000plus]

Like others have suggested, a heavier long barrel will also aid in reducing muzzle jump. So would adding more weight to the forward portion of the stock's forearm.

 

[DawntoDusk]

You might try one of those little limbsaver donut looking things just to see if anything changes. I haven't ever used one but they are cheap to try. Don't know how long or thin your barrel is but if nothing else works you could buy a crowning tool and cut it down 1/2 inch at a time. Shorter barrels tend to be a little stiffer than longer ones if every thing else is the same.

Those limbsaver donuts actually work pretty well. If his muzzle is rising as much as he says, the harmonic dampening of the limbsaver won't help much.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Fire a ten shot group. I'm beginning to thing your "fliers" are really the group size.

 

[hunter0528]

The bullet has left the barrel before ANY recoil or muzzle movement has begun to move the point where it would affect accuracy.

I think you're subconsciously flinching before pulling the trigger because you're anticipating the violent recoil, therefore your pulling your shots.

Recoil starts the fraction of the second after the primer ignites the load.

I've tried different bullet weights and I found a heaver bullet will always print higher, than a lighter on at a faster velocity, due to the slower velocity and longer time in the barrel, thus allowing recoil/muzzle climb effect the round. I know we are talking only 1000 of a second but it stll effects the bullet since it is in the barrel.

 

[Dirty45]

Adding weight is defeating my purpose for this rifle. If I can't figure this out, it's getting a proof. But that means new stock also.

Rich, I agree with you...but it shows enough promise to drive me crazy.

I spoke with a local Smith yesterday. He suggested cutting the barrel down 2-4" to stiffen it. It is a standard Savage sporter contour.

 

[mdk777]

Recoil starts the fraction of the second after the primer ignites the load.

I've tried different bullet weights and I found a heaver bullet will always print higher, than a lighter on at a faster velocity, due to the slower velocity and longer time in the barrel, thus allowing recoil/muzzle climb effect the round. I know we are talking only 1000 of a second but it stll effects the bullet since it is in the barrel.

so, again we need to define terms a little better.

The forces inside the barrel do indeed cause movement of the barrel up and down.
This has been described as harmonics, the spring like oscillation that occurs as the bullet and gasses load and unload on the barrel.

However, the previous poster is correct that recoil (as defined as the stock moving into the shooter) is not a factor due to the time delay.

tuned muzzle brake by definition, is designed to minimize the barrel whip caused by harmonics.

Heavy and fluted barrels also resist this movement.

There are dozens of factors, the key is to correctly identify the PRIMARY factor that is causing the problem.

A new stock is unlikely to change the barrel harmonics that causing the majority of the problem described. It may help in general, but it will not substantially address the root cause of the problem described.

Muzzle brake and or different profile barrel.
One or both will work.

PS, shorter barrel has the same effect also of addressing the harmonic characteristics.

You could saw off at one inch increments and see where you find a sweat spot.
You might get lucky and catch it early.

 

[LDHunter]

One truism I encountered many years ago in trying to acquire/build lightweight hunting rifles was to NEVER sacrifice barrel thickness when trying to shave ounces unless you're hunting under 125 yards at whitetails or larger game.

Skinny barrels whip, cause undue recoil and promote muzzle rise. I like lightweight stocks, lightweight/short actions, medium weight scopes and fairly heavy barrels. A short and light carbine with a medium weight barrel is my favorite combination.

For a lightweight carry rifle I aim for (pun intended) good accuracy and retained velocity up to 300yds. Beyond that I immediately change tactics to a magnum type cartridge, heavy barrel, and a fairly straight stock with full action bedding by a very competent gunsmith.

All bedding jobs are FAR from equal. Once you learn what to look for you'll find that most bedding jobs allow the barreled action to rock like a rocking horse in the action when you slightly loosen both action screws.

It should be like setting a concrete block on a perfectly flat concrete driveway. Also when you tighten the bedding screws back up both should turn fairly easily and then when the action hits the bedding they should come to an abrupt stop with no slow tightening or cross torquing necessary. You shouldn't even need a torque wrench. Just hand tighten and you're good to go. You shouldn't be tightening further and further into the stock/bedding as the action settles into it's place.

I once had a Remington Model Seven SS Magnum in 300SAUM that came from the factory in one of those tupperware stocks and the original owner had the action pillar bedded and action bedded into that stock by a professional gunsmith that also tuned the trigger. That rifle shot consistently 1/2" to 5/8" groups all day long but only weighed 6.5 pounds sans scope, ammo, scope mounts and rings.

Like an idiot I sold it and the new owner put a McMillan Alaska Wilderness Rifle stock on it which is a GREAT stock but the guy that bedded it did a really crappy job and the rifle shot patterns. He sold it back to me and I took it to my gunsmith and he ripped out the crappy bedding job and did one of his "bank vault" (my term) bedding jobs on it and it's back to tiny groups. It was all about the bedding.

I've said it before on here many times before. ALL rifles need a serious bedding job before you can get the best groups the rifle is capable of shooting unless you're incredibly lucky. Even the HS Precision Aluminum "Vblock" stocks. Once you skim bed those stocks, unless you have a crappy action or barrel, the rifles start shooting one hole groups with almost any ammo.

I always start with a quality bedding job and only once ever had to have the barrel channel bedded as well. I figure if that's necessary then a thicker barrel is probably a better choice but sometimes it's about the money and weight.

I've quit all those load work up agonizing hours because they usually aren't necessary with a good barrel, trued action, and a quality bedding job. Most any ammo or handloads shoot better than I can.

I know I'll probably get a lot of flak from this message but it's finally put years of chasing groups to rest for me where I can focus more on shooting form and my hunting rather than load development. If I was a benchrest shooter I know it would be a different world and I'd have to be more exacting but now once I get a rifle that shoots under a half inch reliably I usually call it good enough and move on to perfecting my shooting and/or hunting skills although those hunting skills are ALWAYS a work in progress... LOL

 

[floyd kittrell]

Adding weight is defeating my purpose for this rifle. If I can't figure this out, it's getting a proof. But that means new stock also.

Rich, I agree with you...but it shows enough promise to drive me crazy.

I spoke with a local Smith yesterday. He suggested cutting the barrel down 2-4" to stiffen it. It is a standard Savage sporter contour.

That is what I did to my kicker , cut barrel 2" and added break , this rifle ran 130gr TTSX @ 3347 FPS and was then a pleasure to shoot . I also always hunted with ear protection after the break was installed , wish I had done that anyway as I am extremely hard of hearing after running weapons for 60 plus years , this was a great deer and prong horn load to 650 yds

 

[Barrelnut]

Is it possible it is the load? I don't know the velocity you are getting from the targets, but I think 55.5 Gr. of H4831 is a little light for 168 Gr. bullets. What kinda SD are you getting? Maybe the load is not on a node and you are getting some flyers.
Reason I think about this is because I just watched a guy work up a load on a Savage 280AI with a 24" Criterion barrel. He is running about 60.7 Gr. of H4831 and a 168 berger at 2950 FPS. 2950 FPS is a common place to be with a 168 in a 280AI.