Inconsistent rifle due to recoil/muzzle climb

[engineer40]

Just because it's a McGowen barrel doesn't mean that they need to be the ones to thread it and doesn't mean you have to use their brake. Unless they give you a better deal financially because it's one of their barrels.

I don't get too worked up over theory on how much a rifle moves before the bullet leaves the barrel... or how much the rifle doesn't move. Or if in reality it's me vs the rifle. I just know that lighter weight rifles shoot better for me when I have a brake on them. Maybe it's all my fault and has nothing to do with the rifle. I'm ok with that. Maybe other guys wouldn't need a brake to shoot the same rifle consistently accurate. I'm ok with that too.

Even though I am a fan of brakes, many of my AR15's only have the thread protector and no muzzle device at all because it's not needed on a semi auto 223.

 

[Marc Gauthier]

yes and no, for pressure point

 

[Gcan]

lookong for some thoughts, ideas, suggestions on this.

Here is the set up:
Savage 116
McGowan sporter barrel
.280ai, 1:9 twist
BC sporter stock

Loads: 160AB, 168vld, 162 eldx

I put this gun together for a mid-weight hunting gun. It weighs just under 8lbs. The issue is that the muzzle climb on it is insanely violent. The best groups come when I literally force the gun into the bags and force it down. Obviously this is not consistent or good with a hunting rifle .

Some paths I'm looking at:
-try 140 class loads. Not real keen on this, but a thought.
-add a Witt clamp on brake. Not a huge fan if the bulkiness.
-tear it apart and put on a proof. Would require ordering a stock...and a long wait. Spendy...

I've had others shoot the gun with the same results and responses on the climb/recoil.

Thoughts/ideas?

Rifles can be like pistols in how they recoil. Bore Centerline height above the centerline of the hand or stock can largely determine recoil climb. Like a single shot revolver with the barrel axis high above the hand jumps and rolls.
Geometry matters.

The more drop in stock the higher the center of the bore is relative to the bearing center but by the time a gun jumps upward the bullet is gone.

I have seen some stocks that induce muzzel jump because of these relationships.

I'd check bedding and then try a factory stock before I did much else. If the stock is the problem you may have a worse problem with a lighter barrel.

As for grouping. I agree that the bullet gets gone before the gun really jumps but guns do move instantly with the shot being fired. Laws of physics. Equal and opposite reactions. Your gun is moving backward as the bullet begins moving forward. The case jumps backwards and loads the bolt lugs. It expands. The case locks up on the chamber walls. So the gun is in recoil before the bullet exits the barrel. Thats why follow thru is so important in shooting. You really cannot effect the bullet flight by holding onto the gun after the bullet is gone. Follow thru is to get you to let the gun recoil exactly the same way for every shot. This is form. You may be flinching or anticipating the shot to some degree. Heavy bullets, big charges, light barrels, inefficient or no break are a recipe for violent gun movement if lots of factors are not considered in the build.

I like stole Panda stocks. Almost perfectly straight stock. Recoil is perfectly straight backwards. Virtually no climb. Bore axis and butt centerline are parallel and very close.

Another factor might be what you are resting on. I have a gun that jumps like a stung mule off high bags, but is fine off a bipod. I think its a matter of physics- where the recoil center aligns with my body.

Lastly, I had a rifle years ago built by a guy who should have been a ditch-digger. The barrel thread to action alignment was off enough that gun jumped a bit but also shot like throwing rocks.

If your gun is moving and you are certain its not you, Id start with bedding and possibly a stock swap.

 

[Wisconsin Big Foot]

lookong for some thoughts, ideas, suggestions on this.

Here is the set up:
Savage 116
McGowan sporter barrel
.280ai, 1:9 twist
BC sporter stock

Loads: 160AB, 168vld, 162 eldx

I put this gun together for a mid-weight hunting gun. It weighs just under 8lbs. The issue is that the muzzle climb on it is insanely violent. The best groups come when I literally force the gun into the bags and force it down. Obviously this is not consistent or good with a hunting rifle .

Some paths I'm looking at:
-try 140 class loads. Not real keen on this, but a thought.
-add a Witt clamp on brake. Not a huge fan if the bulkiness.
-tear it apart and put on a proof. Would require ordering a stock...and a long wait. Spendy...

I've had others shoot the gun with the same results and responses on the climb/recoil.

Thoughts/ideas?

I don't expect you to do this, but maybe it might point you in the right direction. I have an 8mm Mauser my dad brought back from WWII and had it "Sporterized". I've since done the usual tricks like free-floating the barrel and bedding the action etc., but when I started to hand load for it to the original German specs, even got some European sheet powder, the recoil was too much at 3100 fps/150 gr bullet. I'm an inventor and a machinist, so I designed a muzzle brake similar to the one on the Barrett 50 cal. that clamps onto the unmodified barrel. It's pretty heavy, which dampens barrel whip and I got lucky as it completely eliminates ANY recoil. I believe the secret is that the three ports on each side angle backwards at 45 degrees much like the thrust reversers on a jet engine. At the range I've had military experts shoot it and they say they've never fired a high power rifle that had no recoil. I can fire it on a bipod without holding the gun, just reach over and pull the trigger and the gun just sits there. Amazing accuracy that I can't duplicate without the brake; three bullets in 3/4" circle at 100 yards from the bench. It does blow any papers off the bench, but I use good muffs every time including hunting.

 

[floyd kittrell]

Odd my 30-06 had such a violent muzzle jump that it literally jumped off the front rest , I had to put sand bags on either side to prevent it landing on the bench , and it shot bug holes .

 

[Frog4aday]

Looking for some thoughts, ideas, suggestions on this. Here is the set up: Savage 116; McGowan sporter barrel; .280ai; 1:9 twist; BC sporter stock. Loads: 160AB, 168vld, 162 eldx.
I put this gun together for a mid-weight hunting gun. It weighs just under 8lbs.<SNIPPED STUFF> Some paths I'm looking at:
-try 140 class loads. Not real keen on this, but a thought.<SNIPPED STUFF>

Hey Dirty45,
You are on the right track with the first "path" you are looking at: A lighter bullet (140 grain class loads). It will help. And it's the cheapest/easiest option to start with.

A muzzle brake (or Magna-Port) will obviously help, too, but the BLAST is horrendous. It just is. If this was a bench-rest gun then, so what? Double up on hearing protection and reap the rewards. But this is a "mid-weight hunting gun". A muzzle break on a hunting rifle means you MUST wear hearing protection when hunting, or at least insert/put-on hearing protection before taking a shot. Sometimes that's possible, sometimes not. And you will never forget touching off a shot of a "braked" gun without hearing protection. IMHO, skip putting a brake on your HUNTING rifle.

If you can tolerate a touch more weight, consider putting a mercury recoil-reducer in the buttstock. It helped my Tikka T3 in .338 Win Mag 'behave' better. Money well spent.

Since this is a hunting rifle, it really shouldn't be seeing much bench/bag time. With that in mind, you should consider using a PAST SUPER MAG PLUS RECOIL PAD SHIELD when benching this gun. They cost about $32 and are worth the price. They let you focus on your SHOT when over the bags; you quit worrying about the kick that's coming. It magically sucks all that 'pain' away.

If you still feel you need to "modify" the rifle in some way but want to keep it a 'mid-weight' hunting gun, Dean2 is correct in his recommendation to: FULL LENGTH GLASS-BED the barrel. It is amazing how much this can help a lighter weight barreled gun. It will add a touch more weight up front (a good thing in this case) and it will make the gun more consistent in accuracy, at least for three shots.

Another super simple, cheap, easy thing to try came from Mustang72: the LIMBSAVER SHARPSHOOTER X-RING STANDARD BARREL RUBBER 'deresonator' (i.e., black barrel donut.) I put one on a Ruger 77/22 that was only happy with ONE load. After putting on the 'rubber donut' it now likes ALL KINDS of different ammo. $10 well spent.

 

[jimbires]

the pic with the single brake is the rifle I had problems shooting , just as you're saying you're having . this rifle has about a .550 muzzle dia , 24 " bbl length , 300 wby shooting 200 gr partitions at 3000 FPS that's 82.0 grains of IMR7828ssc . it had a slimline radial brake on it . I messed with this rifle until I'd get tired of it , put it away until I got some patience again . this went on for a few years . the recoil is stout , it hammered out the stock where the recoil lug fits in . I bought a McMillan stock , with the deluxe recoil pad, had it bedded by Kevin Cram at Montour county rifles . this rifle was no different to shoot . I bought a new brake from Nathan . it was his older design 4 port with top holes to help control muzzle jump . that's all it took for me , to be able to shoot this rifle . it was a night and day difference .
the pic with the three brakes . one is the 300 wby , center in pic . one is a factory weatherby radial brake on my 7mm rem mag . it works good , but it blows dirty like crazy when shooting prone . I don't recommend a radial brake because of this . the top brake in this pic is my 338 lapua . it is one of Nathans beast brakes . this brake is a 4 port , without top holes . he has redesigned the side port shape to help with muzzle jump . this brake works great . he now has a 5 port for these hard kickers , but this 4 port really tamed this rifle .it is a kitty cat to shoot . it had a ugly , very fat, radial brake on it , that was not up to par . I think if you'd put a good side discharge brake on your rifle , that is designed to control muzzle jump , you would be shooting it like a champ . I suggest talking to Nathan at muzzle brakes and more .

 

[gator378]

Dirty,

What do your groups look like? Are you only getting vertical stringing?

I've used a lot of lightweight rifles with skinny barrels and finally gave up getting good accuracy from skinny barrels. What I have found that works in lightweight rigs is medium weight barrels, quality and well bedded stocks and being familiar with shooting lightweight rifles and pulling the butt back against my shoulder by gripping the wrist and pulling back with my trigger hand.

Putting downward pressure on any part of any rifle when you shoot is never something that is repeatable especially on any hunting rifle in the field.

Another thing. The excessive muzzle rise you're reporting when you shoot makes absolutely no sense at all. You need to figure out what is causing this. I'm not familiar with your stock but unless it has much drop at the comb then it baffles me unless it's just that you aren't used to shooting a lightweight rifle with a "magnum" cartridge and what you're experiencing is the way lightweight rifles recoil.

I have a couple of 7mmSAUM rifles that weigh in at 6.5 pounds unscoped and when I shoot 160gr and heavier bullets I get muzzle rise and maybe I'm just used to it after over 40 years of shooting lightweight rifles but it doesn't affect my accuracy. I think the 7SAUM has very similar ballistics to the 280AI.

My take on muzzle brakes is that unless they're needed on a rifle with truly shoulder damaging recoil due to heavy projectiles being propelled at high velocities such as a 338 Lapua or 50BMG is that they make a lot of hearing damaging noise and cover up the symptom of a poor stock design or overall weight issue.

Not everyone should be shooting heavy recoiling rifles. It's simply too much trauma for many to handle. Look at video of people shooting lightweight magnum rifles and decide whether or not you are willing to subject yourself to that. It's not something we talk about much but it's akin to a the noise of a close up rock band at a concert and being punched very hard in the shoulder. A lifetime of shooting can make us numb to it but there are many physical maladies that can result from it with serious hearing loss despite our use of premium hearing protection being the most noticeable.

I've opted to put up with it due to my commitment to hunting medium to large game with what I consider adequate firepower and my love for making lightweight rifles shoot but I sometimes wonder if it's worth it. LOL

$bob$

Sometimes heavy is good.

 

[whirlwindjml]

If you have a friend (that shoots well) you might have him shoot a few groups. See how his looks. [Vertical still?]might shed some insite on if its you or gun.

Some of my different scopes Seem to be easier than others to notice if my face is lined or squared up properly. If your up or down on the cheek weld and dont see it in the scope picture... It will result in vertical groups as well.

 

[tankgijohn72]

Put a new barrel on it or the witt machine brake. I had a savage 116 in .300 wm and I was never able to tame the recoil to get consistent accuracy, and forget trying to spot a shot. I ended up screwing on a 26 nosler heavy barrel and it shoots really well. I have also used the witt machine brakes and have been very happy with them on a couple different rifles. (If you wait until a holiday, they usually have 25% off sales). They add minimal weight. If you are planning to shoot long range with it, shootability trumps portability. I'm certain that the witt will drastically reduce recoil. If for some reason you can't get the rifle to shoot with the brake, you are out roughly $100, and can then buy a new barrel.

lookong for some thoughts, ideas, suggestions on this.

Here is the set up:
Savage 116
McGowan sporter barrel
.280ai, 1:9 twist
BC sporter stock

Loads: 160AB, 168vld, 162 eldx

I put this gun together for a mid-weight hunting gun. It weighs just under 8lbs. The issue is that the muzzle climb on it is insanely violent. The best groups come when I literally force the gun into the bags and force it down. Obviously this is not consistent or good with a hunting rifle .

Some paths I'm looking at:
-try 140 class loads. Not real keen on this, but a thought.
-add a Witt clamp on brake. Not a huge fan if the bulkiness.
-tear it apart and put on a proof. Would require ordering a stock...and a long wait. Spendy...

I've had others shoot the gun with the same results and responses on the climb/recoil.

Thoughts/ideas?

 

[7magcreedmoor]

My first reaction to your description of the problem is "stock shape/fit" issue. If the barrel axis is significantly above the stock comb/heel, a light rifle like yours will want to rotate (muzzle jump) much more than if the two axises (axes?) are close together. I have two 280 AIs on savage and stevens receivers, one in a Boyd's Provarmint and the other now in an MDT chassis. Also a 6.5/284 in a Boyd's JRS Classic. All these setups are very straight-through in shape. The chassis butt stock has an adjustable but pad mount allowing me to push it up in line with the cheek rest. You could put one of these adjustable butt fixtures on your B&C stock if you don't want to replace it just yet. That would be probably the lowest cost experiment, and may be just what you need. I am also a big fan of brakes and electronic ear-pro regardless of whether I'm at the range or on the hunt. Like American Express used to say, "never leave home without it". Someone also mentioned a recoil reducer. I put a Dead Mule brand reducer in a 7RemMag that was kind of obnoxious and it made a noticeable difference. In your place, I'd try Dead Mule and adjustable butt pad mount first, and only spend more if that didn't make me happy.

 

[Dirty45]

All,
First let me say thank you for all the great insight and help.

Some more detail and pics of the build.

This gun has shot some great groups...it just isn't consistently repeatable as per the pic. This was back to back groups with a zero adjustment. The interesting thing is I was literally man-handling the gun down into the bags and into my shoulder to do this. Not repeatable for a hunting gun. I've never done this to another rifle...

For what's worth, when I say the groups open up it's like 1.5moa+. This has been verified out to 500yds. Not good enough for what I'm looking for.

My thoughts are that the stock design is causing the majority of this issue. I did pick up a limbsaver barrel deal today from a buddy to try...who knows.

I'll also get some 140gr bullets tomorrow and see how that goes. Thinking 140 Accubonds.

I'm also thinking of yanking this stock off and trying the old plastic factory savage stock. I'm kind of kicking myself as this gun shot real well as a factory barreled .30-06 before I tore it apart to make it a .280ai.

Thanks again to all! I truly appreciate it.

 

[Frog4aday]

Some GREAT groups! And what a beautiful gun. Hopefully you can get it working to your satisfaction with the 140 grain accubonds and the Limbsaver 'barrel donut'. Inexpensive place to start and it might be all you need. Good luck!

 

[MudRunner2005]

All,
First let me say thank you for all the great insight and help.

Some more detail and pics of the build.

This gun has shot some great groups...it just isn't consistently repeatable as per the pic. This was back to back groups with a zero adjustment. The interesting thing is I was literally man-handling the gun down into the bags and into my shoulder to do this. Not repeatable for a hunting gun. I've never done this to another rifle...

For what's worth, when I say the groups open up it's like 1.5moa+. This has been verified out to 500yds. Not good enough for what I'm looking for.

My thoughts are that the stock design is causing the majority of this issue. I did pick up a limbsaver barrel deal today from a buddy to try...who knows.

I'll also get some 140gr bullets tomorrow and see how that goes. Thinking 140 Accubonds.

I'm also thinking of yanking this stock off and trying the old plastic factory savage stock. I'm kind of kicking myself as this gun shot real well as a factory barreled .30-06 before I tore it apart to make it a .280ai.

Thanks again to all! I truly appreciate it.

That style stock should not be the problem...That's about as straight-pull as any regular stock. They are referring to the drop-comb stocks like on the Weatherby Accumarks that the buttstock looks like it has a hump in it and it angles back down into your shoulder. I noticed this style of stock had a very violent "snappy" recoil impulse in my Accumark .257 Wby. especially from the bench. The stock you have shouldn't be causing this issue.

I will say this... The types of powder you use can also affect how snappy the recoil impulse is. Sometimes swapping to a slower burning powder can help counter this...Although there is no guarantee, just theoretical that it might help some with a rifle...It's very noticeable with a pistol/revolver. Try using some IMR 7828 SSC. A $20 can of powder is worth a try.

What powder have you been using?