How do you lower S.D.?

[Steve Shelp]

I read this post this morning before I went to work and it has been eating at me all day, I do agree that I have had better luck with RL22 and H4831 than any other powders in a 300 WM, with that said I could not dis agree more with your last paragraph, my analogy might be somewhat in appropriate but to me finding a powder,bullet, brass, primer combo that works in my rifle is just like taking a big POOP you dont do it 90% it is a job that needs done 100%.
I dont know anybody that does not use toilet paper when they POOP, just like I dont know anybody that does not use a chronograph when they do LOAD developement.
That last 5-10% of effort can make a huge difference.
UB

UncleB,
Don't try to read something I didn't write. I never said the other 10% wasn't important. Though we probably disagree on the use of a chrono. All I was said is that if you don't have the basics down pat first i.e. good primer, powder type and wgt, and seating depth you are out to lunch in trying to get a good load for long range hunting. I'll stand behind my statements 100%. It may not be popular, but I'm not trying to win a popularity contest either. This poster originally asked about how to get his rifle to shoot better and he is talking about using a chrono and looking at better SDs and such. But his load is only shooting 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" @ 100yds! Seeing how you like to use analogies then consider this one:

Would you try to modify a '76 pinto if you needed a car that will go 150mph? Or would you start with a car that does 125mph out of the factory? That is all my statement said. You won't get a factory Pinto to go 150mph by applying a "few tricks". And you won't get a rifle shooting 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" groups at 100yds to shoot groups good enough to go long range hunting with, by telling that shooter to debur his flash holes, neck turn, use a chrono to reduce SD, etc etc etc. That shooter needs a change to his load that will shoot consistantly tight groups FIRST. Then apply the tricks of the trade to tweek that last 10%. Period, bottom-line, end of story.
If we disagree on using a chrono that is fine. I have shot long range BR competition for 3/4 of my life. Small groups and high scores are the name of the game. Anything else is woulda, coulda, shoulda. Of all the people on this board, I have probably used a chronograph the least amount by the sounds of the posts I have read over time. I've learned that the paper targets tell you when a load is working not the chronograph. I have VV N170 loads for my 338 caliber HG with consistant single digit SDs that grouped good at 100yds but NEVER shot under 10" at 1000yds. 10" groups won't raise an eyebrow in todays competitons. I can rememebr when shooting under 10" at 1000yds got you a few hand shakes and slaps on the back.
I haven't used my chrono in probably 3-4 yrs for my hunting or competition guns. A chronograph has it's place and time. But those times are fewer than most want to admit. Don't forget the toilet paper because you just met someone who doesn't. And I take my rifles/competitions serious.

Steve

 

[Weda]

What Steve said...

I used to take my Chony freaking everywhere... got real invovled in the numbers and concentrated on making sure the numbers were what I want instead of "seeing" what the load was doing.
The rifle will tell what works not the chrony.

Chrony's are a good tool but the results at the "target" are what matters.

Powder burn in the barrel, complete burn, plays more of a role that what most give credit for , just my .02

Bullets going to sleep? That theory has been around for a long time. I have had many people say just what uncleB said.. witnessed may times but yet no one has proved it or even showed data that supported it. Does anyone here have some pics to show me that the groups are marginal at 100 yet sub MOA at 500? The next question is.. do you use that load for hunting?

I always go for a one hole group at 100 and then test the load through the 100 yard increments to 1000 yards. I don't work backwards.

 

[uncleB]

Steve,
My intent is not to get you all worked up but I just dont understand your viewpoint on chronographs.
A chronograph is a precise measureing tool used for hand loading ammunition, I can say the exact same thing about a powder scale. would you omit using a powder scale???? I'm betting that you use one.
So if a person wants to precisly measure what goes INTO a case, why would that person not want to precisly measure what comes OUT ????
It just does not make sense.
UB

speaking of not making any sense is weda's post it does not even warrant a reply

 

[Boss Hoss]

What Steve said...

I used to take my Chony freaking everywhere... got real invovled in the numbers and concentrated on making sure the numbers were what I want instead of "seeing" what the load was doing.
The rifle will tell what works not the chrony.

Chrony's are a good tool but the results at the "target" are what matters.

Powder burn in the barrel, complete burn, plays more of a role that what most give credit for , just my .02

Bullets going to sleep? That theory has been around for a long time. I have had many people say just what uncleB said.. witnessed may times but yet no one has proved it or even showed data that supported it. Does anyone here have some pics to show me that the groups are marginal at 100 yet sub MOA at 500? The next question is.. do you use that load for hunting?

I always go for a one hole group at 100 and then test the load through the 100 yard increments to 1000 yards. I don't work backwards.

This poor soul is in the weeds so far that the sun is not even visable... What a pantload!!

 

[Boss Hoss]

UB,
You do have quite the way of putting it plainly!

It surprises me still to this day how many people that own chronos only use them to determine their pet load's velocity. The rest of the time while they are doing load development, the chrono is home in the closet! If more people understood what the chrono could tell them, the less it would be neglected.

Your statement is spot on and the Chrono is just like any other tool you use to achieve and end-----YOU HAVE TO USE IT. Unfortunately there are people who can't find their rear ends with both hands! Just remember "winning isn't everything but losing sucks"!!! Some people know what it takes to win and some don't but the mechanics of working up a load for long range is the SAME.

 

[J E Custom]

KQguy

Lots of good information from everyone but maybe a little confusing
so I thought I,d re,post from a different perspective to help you out.

A looooong time ago there were no chronographs and all loads were
tested for group size at the max distance to be used.

If you shot High Power matches (200yrds, 300yrds, 600yrds and 1000
yrds)you worked up loads that would work best at 600yrds and 1000 yrds
that may not be the same. some would have loads for 200 and 300yrds
also.

Back then it was not unusual to test several hundred loads to find just
the right load for the task (targets or hunting).

And then along came the chonograph that the average person could
afford and changed the way a lot of people approached reloading.

I made all of the usual mistakes because in the beginning all I was
interested in was velocity. And I was still testing lots of loads.

Then I read an article written by a bench rest shooter, Well I,m no
bench rester but I can allways learn something new on how to work
up accurace loads with a minimum of loading. I have posted this
process before and will try to find it but for now here is a shortend
version.

Size,prep and weight sort all the brass,pick the bullet you want to
use and select two or three loads (primer,powder and weight of
powder) seat the bullets .020 or more off the lands (you change this
later) and start testing through a chonograph.

Look for low standard deviations and if the first and second shots
are way apart then stop and save the other rounds for later reloading.
dont worry about group size at this time ( this will happen later).

Once you find a load with good SD,s then you can change bullet styles
(not weight)and seating depth to improve group size.

Now instead of loading hundreds of loads looking for the best I can
normaly find the right one in less than 20 or 25 test.

As you can tell by the post there are a lot of opinions on this subject
and if it works for them then great. this is just the way I do it and with
the cost of components 'less is more'.

By the way after I started using this method I went back and tested
all of my best loads for SD and found them all to have very low SD,s
many were in the single digits (best was a 1000yrd load @04 in 5 rounds.

And not to stir the pot but "My Opinion" about a bullet straightning out
once it leaves the barrel is that a bullet has no brain and does not
correct it,s flight .If it starts out 1" to the left it will only get worse
due to outside forces (Wind,temp,humidity.altitude ETC) in a vacuum
if it starded out 1" to the left @ 100yrds it would be 2"left @ 200 and
10"@ 1000yrds so the best way to keep the accuracy at long distances
is to use bullets with the highest balistic coefficient that resist these out
side effects.

This gets us back to Standard deviations. One thing that can be improved
by carefull loading and has a huge effect on long range shooting is the
standard deviations.

I know it sounds like If you use a chronograph you are a Techno freak
(A quote from a famous poster on this site) Ha, Ha, But we enjoy all
of the other improvements that are out there that are to many to list
so why not utilizes the Chronograph to its fullest.


Sorry for the Essay just trying to help
J E CUSTOM

 

[Reloader]

Try other powders and bullets.....

While your abolt may never be BR accurate, you can probably find a load that will reduce your groups. I have loaded for many rifles that my first impressions were they were never going to shoot only to find after many different combos, I would stumble onto a load that shot surprisingly well and surprisingly consistent.

I would try H4831 in your 300WM, it has been a very good powder choice in all of the 300 winnies I've loaded for withe bullets in the 180-200 range. Also, don't get dead set on a bullet weight. My most accurate 300WM shoots several various 178-180s well, but it shoots 190MKs outstanding.

Switch it up a bit. Sadly, load development for some rifles is not a piece of cake. I've nearly pulled my hair out on a few only to stumble onto a combo that was lights out. Some tubes will shoot dozens of combos well, some definitely have a preference or a "pet" load. Finding that pet load is a bummer at times. Luckily, we all seem to stumble onto a pet load right from the gate at times.

Good Luck,

Reloader

 

[Weda]

You guys are right.
I have no idea what I am doing.
I new at this and I'm happy with MOPP ( Minute of pie plate )

I never said I don't use a chony. I use it when it is warrented.

by telling that shooter to debur his flash holes, neck turn, use a chrono to reduce SD, etc etc etc. That shooter needs a change to his load that will shoot consistantly tight groups FIRST. Then apply the tricks of the trade to tweek that last 10%. Period, bottom-line, end of story.

ummm yeah... now you can use a chrony.. that's all I was saying.

Load development like a ladder test or round robin. Do you really need to know how fast your moving until you find the "sweet spots" sure I guess if you are curious.

I guess you could always take all the load develoment form all the forums here and say well thats what they use so my rifle should like it too.

ES, SD all they is important once you narrow down your choices. To break out the chrony from the jump. Waste of time until you get a handle on what your rifle likes. IE: after a ladder or round robin test.

And not to stir the pot but "My Opinion" about a bullet straightning out
once it leaves the barrel is that a bullet has no brain and does not
correct it,s flight .If it starts out 1" to the left it will only get worse
due to outside forces (Wind,temp,humidity.altitude ETC) in a vacuum
if it starded out 1" to the left @ 100yrds it would be 2"left @ 200 and
10"@ 1000yrds so the best way to keep the accuracy at long distances
is to use bullets with the highest balistic coefficient that resist these out
side effects.

shhhhhh O/C maybe someone has a line on smart bullets... you know like the tomahawk missle types.

I used to think that pitching an yawing ( not asleep yet ) had some validity but I always wondered how the bullet knew to straighten out on the intended path the driver pointed it at and not somewhere else.
I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if someone can show me this happens. I have heard alot of guys say it but no one has proven it.

This poor soul is in the weeds so far that the sun is not even visable... What a pantload!!

I'm more than willing to test my skills against yours. ;-)

 

[Boss Hoss]

I'm more than willing to test my skills against yours. ;-)

Hey I am for it----- the 26th of April ----- last year came in 4th in the 1K State Championships and won it the year before all shooting score NOT for GROUP ;-!Schedule

Looking forward to it!!

 

[Boss Hoss]

Duplicate Post

 

[J E Custom]

"SORRY" But I have to ask,Why you would load first and then go back and
prep your brass after getting a decent load ?? this could change everything

If preping (size,trim,deburr,chamfer and weigh) is not important then you could mix your brass (winchester,remingtion,hornady,norma ETC) with no
ill effects. I DONT THINK SO !!!

Reloading is like gun smithing,You never get a second chance to do it right the first time. So dont go backwards ,take things one at a time.

The devil made me do it
J E CUSTOM

 

[petenz]

What is considered an acceptable standard deviation?


Less than 15 or so?

 

[davewilson]

Weda, did you ever have one of those "tops" when you were a kid? the kind that you would wrap a string around it and hank the string to "spin it like a top" they're usually round with a very pointed tip that allows it to spin for quite a while on the floor or any smooth surface. when you first cut it loose, it doesn't stay in one spot, but travels in a circle as it leans ever so slightly towards the center of the circular path it's on. then in a few seconds it will stop it's circular path and spin in one spot, or very close to one spot. eventually it starts wobbling and goes all over the place till it of course stops all together. this is a yaw effect and pretty much how a bullet acts as it goes through the air.as a bullet goes down the barrel, it's fully supported and all of a sudden it's not when it's released into the air. like the top it starts going in a circular manner but the tip is always pointing to a spot well downrange on the centerline with the bore of the barrel.

i tested this with a gun that would shoot an inch at 200 yards if all was well. i put targets up at 35, 75, 125 and 200. i shot using a round robin method and all the groups were around an inch except the 35. it was about .75 in diameter. i shot at 35 yards only on another day and the group was about the same. i only did this with one gun but i'm a firm believer in the "yaw effect"

 

[KQguy]

Well I traded my A-bolt for a new savage 110fp,I am curious to see if the gun itself will make a difference.Regardless of what gun I am shooting,I will alway's try to get the SD down to a minimum.After all,isn't that what makes tight groups,CONSISTANCY.